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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:41 pm 
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well unfortunatley for my 9 year old daughter..her mouth is similar to mine. i took her to the ortho last week, and she will need an expander along with upper braces on her teeth. i really dont want to put her through all the agony of the expander, because i have one...but i feel it will be a good bonding experience for the two of us, because we will have braces at the same time. can you believe that...mother and daughter, braced together? if any of you have questions regarding the expander, id be happy to answer them, because i know all about them. :?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:43 pm 
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kids usually adapt to these things better than adults anyway

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:06 pm 
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My daughter had an RPE when she was 8 and had no problems at all - other than a short-term speech problem. She's now waiting to lose baby teeth before full braces. Now, I've got braces so she's seeing what she's in for. I'll probably be getting mine off just about the time that she's having hers put on. I'm sure we'll be on the long-term payment plan with the ortho for years to come since I also have a 4-year old coming behind her. :roll:

I really think children adjust easier than adults, and possibly the treatment is easier on younger tissues and bone structure. Just my opinion.

Chris

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 Post subject: Cruelty against children
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:55 am 
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I find it cruel to break the palatal bone of a just 8- 9-year old child by a fixed expander. In my opinion, this is a method for adults and older teenagers.
Because for such young children, removable plate appliances can gain the required width and space well, also avoiding extractions, and they can correct the positions of the teeth. Everything of this more slowly, but in parallel, so that after 2-4 years of e.g. 15/24h wear the job is done without letting your child suffer.
If you don´t believe me, go on my www below to "Case examples", especially "Transversal and sagittal expansion". See how much space is gained just by turning the screw once a week. 1 mm per month can be done by this, and in contrast to fixed expanders, no bone is broken which requires subsequent 2-3 months to heal.
I emphasize that these are cases from scientific literature, not from advertisements.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:20 am 
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Quote:
I find it cruel to break the palatal bone of a just 8- 9-year old child by a fixed expander. In my opinion, this is a method for adults and older teenagers.


Truth is you don't have to break the palatal bone of a child of that age because it's not fused yet, but gives in to expansion without having to break anything. Instead it is a cruel thing to do to adults with a fused palate. Just a thought from an adult who had her palate cracked open at 35 :evil:
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 Post subject: Cruel?!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:14 am 
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My son had an expander when he was 12. It didn't bother him in the least with the exception of his speech. The worst part of it was having me stick the "key" in his mouth every night turn it. Blech!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:01 am 
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Quote:
Truth is you don't have to break the palatal bone of a child of that age because it's not fused yet, but gives in to expansion without having to break anything.

Let´s do not discuss about the choice of the word - in scientific literature, it is „splitting of the palatal suture“. But it is not just stimulation of lacking growth, as with the removable plate appliance. Because it needs time to heal afterwards, like a fractured bone. What is disrupted there in the childrens´palate may be somehow softer than bone, like cartilage.
Quote:
My son had an expander when he was 12. It didn't bother him in the least with the exception of his speech.

1. 12, and 8 or 9 years are a difference from the remaining growth capacitance, that would be usable by gentle methods.
2. The removable plate appliance also hinders speech, but the child is not forced to speak inproperly an any situation. For most of the results in the Cases and applications chapter in my www below a wear of 16/24h was demanded.
Information about a further gadget for expansion and gain of space, which must just be worn at night and 1h at day, but with chewing it, is in the sister page http://www.dentosophie.de including 5 case examples.
3. Food is not caught in the removable, and oral hygiene is not hampered and the risk of caries increased, because it is not worn when eating or cleaning teeth.
4. The first days, before the fixed expander has split the palatal suture, can be quite painful, and you will never know before, how much... Pain signifies (reversible or irreversible) damage. The removable is mostly painless, or just slightly aching.
Quote:
The worst part of it was having me stick the "key" in his mouth every night turn it. Blech!
5. Also no problem with the removable. It is turned weekly (or 5-daily, to be tested individually) when out of the mouth.
6. So why have the gentle methods in orthodontics / jaw orthopedics disappeared from the minds, and probably from university teaching? Because the forced methods are more profitable, I suppose. Of course they help faster in severe and adult cases, but is this a justification to treat light cases and especially children more brutally than technically needed? Here in Germany, a lawyer whom I know called such a case (8yr girl, fixed expander) „bodily harm“. Of course the parents had not been informed about the gentle, but less profitable removable expander. When I reported this later to Prof. Tränkmann, to whom I owe most of the Case examples, he said he felt shocked.
There should remain a choice. A survey of alternatives to forced methods has its own chapter on the page below (German / English / French). Because orthodontic treatment consumes considerable time and money, I would recommend a thorough search for a doctor who offers appropriate methods. Often, several technical solutions can solve one and the same problem. For children, e.g. a bionator or a function corrector could replace a headgear in many cases.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:47 am 
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Location: Ohio
striker2090 wrote:
well unfortunatley for my 9 year old daughter..her mouth is similar to mine. i took her to the ortho last week, and she will need an expander along with upper braces on her teeth. i really dont want to put her through all the agony of the expander, because i have one...but i feel it will be a good bonding experience for the two of us, because we will have braces at the same time. can you believe that...mother and daughter, braced together? if any of you have questions regarding the expander, id be happy to answer them, because i know all about them. :?


Can you answer some questions for me? How long have you had your expander on? Do you have braces on as well? How often do you have to adjust yours? I'm 37 and got my expander, along with full brackets top and bottom put on 5 weeks ago. I feel awful! I don't know if my pain will be relieved once the expander comes off, but I don't think I can tolerate this much pain during the entire brace experience. I don't mind the sore tongue, messy eating, drooling, or even sounding like a drunk when I talk. It's the pain that has brought me to tears every day. It doesn't just hurt when I talk, or eat solids, it hurts constantly even with medication. Is this normal? Does it go away once the retainer is gone? Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:33 am 
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i have had the expander on for 3 weeks. i just got my braces on friday (full metal upper and lower)...but im still turningi the expander, and the ortho put powerchains on my two front teeth to close the gap, yet by turning the key i feel so much pressur in that area cause the key wants to create the gap and the powerchain wants to close it. now that i have all these appliances in my mouth (headgear, lip bumper, expander, braces, bite buttons, and coil springs) i can barely talk, but the expadner is the worst. only 2 more weeks of turning the key thouugh. im thinking of taking my daughter to another ortho, becuase this one really gave me i think too many appliances, and i hope maybe she wont have to wear the expander. i sound like a drunk, and the food gets stuck on top, i really want to pull it out, at least i didnt need to surgically expand it. can someone help...pain!!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:09 pm 
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Location: IA
Hordeotech- I'm going to make the call on this one. I don't have the first clue what your motive on this board is, but I can almost certainly say that you don't have braces and are not here for advice. I've come to the conclusion that you have a braces fetish, are trying to subconciously advertise something or are just trolling. I would not care if you any of those apply but the fact that your not being honest about your intensions and the fact that you are rubbing ppl on the board the wrong way with bold statements that at best can be classified as half truths is really starting to bother me.
I'm a man of second chances though. I've received many myself and so I'm willing to forget the first ten posts IF you come clean about your intensions and tell us why you are so obsessed with removable appliance.

Tim


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:22 am 
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striker2090 wrote:
i have had the expander on for 3 weeks. i just got my braces on friday (full metal upper and lower)...but im still turningi the expander, and the ortho put powerchains on my two front teeth to close the gap, yet by turning the key i feel so much pressur in that area cause the key wants to create the gap and the powerchain wants to close it. now that i have all these appliances in my mouth (headgear, lip bumper, expander, braces, bite buttons, and coil springs) i can barely talk, but the expadner is the worst. only 2 more weeks of turning the key thouugh. im thinking of taking my daughter to another ortho, becuase this one really gave me i think too many appliances, and i hope maybe she wont have to wear the expander. i sound like a drunk, and the food gets stuck on top, i really want to pull it out, at least i didnt need to surgically expand it. can someone help...pain!!


Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. After hearing your story of all of those appliances, I feel guilty complaining. I don't even know what bite buttons and coil springs are. I really hope the ortho can remove some of the appliances to alleviate your pain. I was just telling my husband last night that orthos should be honest and tell you that you'll experience pain, not "some discomfort". I guess they just want to make money, so they discount the pain. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:33 am 
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Location: Potsdam near Berlin, Germany
So, here is the new picture of my profile in bigger form:
Image
In constrast to the above-mentioned removable plate appliance, that can be built and used for full correction (preferably starting before all milk teeth have changed), the 2 lower parts of this show lightweight removable expanders for the single purpose of expansion of the upper (in orange) or the lower jaw (in blue). They do not hinder speech and act by a spring (M – or W-shaped) instead of a screw.
About the bigger item in the upper part of my picture, I can´t explain everything in one sentence. The details are in „Pro-Stab bite-jumper plates“ in „Cases and applications“ in my www downbelow. And there is a further sub-chapter with info about lightweight stuff in „Cases and applications“.
NOW, @Tim:
Quote:
Hordeotech- I don't have the first clue what your motive on this board is, ... the fact that your not being honest about your intensions

Tim, WHY do you think that I am lying when I say that I want to protect children from painful and risky treatment, by showing better alternatives?
There are some parents here caring about the well-being of their children. And hundreds of posting in these forums overall where patients are suffering pain.
Quote:
I've come to the conclusion that you have a braces fetish, are trying to subconciously advertise something or are just trolling.

Why are you so hostile towards me? Do you have the character that is assigned to the dog that you are showing? Is it so strange and queer nowadays that somebody has a motivation that gives no profit? I dwell on a part-time job as reasearcher, and I look behind the backgrounds, even of stuff that I have not officially studied.
Quote:
and the fact that you are rubbing ppl on the board the wrong way with bold statements that at best can be classified as half truths is really starting to bother me.

Why bold statements and half truths? Have you ever looked at my website? The case examples there are not from my fantasy or advertisement papers, but from scientific publications of doctors and professors, with their kind permission.
Quote:
I'm a man of second chances though. I've received many myself and so I'm willing to forget the first ten posts IF you come clean about your intensions and tell us why you are so obsessed with removable appliance.

Pieces of information about gentle technologie that could make life easier should not be forgotten, I think. Just these technologies are mainly European and poorly known in your country. What seems to be a question of marketing and profit in general - they are less profitable. I repeat here, I market nothing myself on my website, I am just informing!
I can forget your hostility, if you stop assuming here that I am lying, obsessed / fetishist / trying to sell something here...
I am open to technical questions that concern details of my information.

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 Post subject: Reply to Hordeotech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:00 pm 
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
Hordeotech:

I am new to this message board but I did want to say this much:

Your responses to parents regarding palate expanders is very confusing and I for the life of me cannot figure out what the heck you are talking about! My daughter, at the age of 8, was fitted with a palate expander. AT NO SUCH TIME was her palate broken! The expander is fitted inside the top of your mouth and it SLOWLY expands the upper jaw to correct a cross bite. The expander is turned every night for few weeks and then left alone. This gently expands the upper jaw, no surgery required! It was not painful for my daugther AT ALL! It may have been uncomfortable and it made eating difficult for maybe a week or so but after that, it was piece of cake. Of course it is not the only course of action needed to correct her crossbite, she will need braces and we will find out in the near future what steps will need to be taken but jaw surgery is not one of those steps.

I think that maybe you might want to explain what you are talking about in "Laymen's" terms so that we might understand where you are going with all of this~

Thanks

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:46 am 
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Dear "April", dear readers,
your little daughter had some good luck to have no more complications than
Quote:
It may have been uncomfortable and it made eating difficult for maybe a week or so

Some children suffer more severe complications from fixed expanders. And parents can never know before to what it will turn out.
Fixed expanders can cause severe pain, or digestion disorders due to continuously hampered chewing. Several such cases have been reported to me.
In contrast, there are no such discomforts and no such risks with removable expanders, and with removables in general. If any discomfort turns out, they can be removed, repaired and so on. You just have the task to get accustomed to them.
Let´s discuss it systematically, to avoid confusion:
1. Expanders can be fixed or removable („Schwarz plate“ for expl.) I guess you have not been informed about the latter, so that it appears as a fairy tale to you.
2. Removables in general act almost painlessly, do not disturb eating or cleaning the teeth, and do not disturb speech in important situations (spoken without).
3. Both expanders have a different mode of action. Removables just stimulate growth. Fixed disrupt the palatal suture, which is of hard tissue. In adults, this is bone. In young children, it is rather cartilage. Anyway, it needs time to heal, in contrast to expansion with removables:
Quote:
The expander is turned every night for few weeks and then left alone.

But I have said nowhere that this is an open wound or surgery.
4. Due to 3., fixed expanders can definitely broaden the nose, removables not. Have you been told this before?
I know a lady who had a fixed expander when 7 years old, That time, it was so painful that she was afraid of dentists for many following years. But also, she is suffering from her broadened nose.

5. Due to 3., the expansion itself is faster with fixed expanders, but to be honest, one has to add the healing time, and eventually the further time if a retainer is to be worn afterwards!
Removable plate appliances can gain approximately 1 mm per month, depending on age. They can be designed to do further corrections (you said your daughter will need some ...) at the same time, and can be worn as retainers after correction.
6. The „fairy tale“ of almost painless and economic fully-removable treatment was common truth in our country when I was in treatment 25 years ago. These hand-crafted appliances did many corrections slowly, but at the same time.
Examples are in the cases chapter of my website below. I repeat, they stem from scientific literature.

7. In contrast, fully- or partly-removable treatment seems almost unknown in your country. With few exceptions, e.g. a few Crozat specialists, or www.bimler.com who are giving courses there in three places this year. I digged out a link about Crozat treatment earlier here, concerning how to play the trumpet undisturbed by fixed braces.

PLEASE regard this cultural difference between our countries.
Then with regard to 1. - 7., is it still so strange to you why I am recalling removable treatment here?
Why fixed expanders appear cruel to me, and not only to me?
The expert Prof. Tränkmann, whom I owe most of the case examples, said that he felt „shocked“ about fixed expanders in 8-year old children! Face to the fact that in children up to 8 - 12 years, depending on the amount of width lacking, the expansion can be obtained also with a removable appliance.
But unfortunately, the industrially produced fixed stuff is also invading our market. I repeat, our removable technology is mainly hand crafted. Actually, well-proven functional appliances are expelled by headgears or face masks, especially in interceptive (early) treatment of progenic cases („class 3“), that means, where the lower jaw is before the upper.
Functionals can be designed to correct the jaw position, to adjust the jaw width to this, and to direct the growth of teeth until they are matching in correct bite position. Can headgears / face masks alone do all of this? They rather require further braces. So that the treatmant in total is more profitable by this, compared to functional treatment, or compared to treatment with removable plates. So, do you get an idea now, why removable treatment is so unknown that is sounds like fairy tales?
Feel free to discuss also in my own forum, no problem in English: http://f32308.siteboard.de, or accessible via my website below.

Greetings, Larissa

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 Post subject: palatal suture
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:49 pm 
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Just a thought from an adult who had her palate cracked open at 35

I'm not sure how this board works yet.. I am trying to reply to the quote above and I'm wondering if your palatal suture was opened without surgery.

Thanks a lot,
Mar


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