Really bad problem, any idea's? updated x-ray pictures

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JacquieMz
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:38 pm
Location: New Jersey

Really bad problem, any idea's? updated x-ray pictures

#1 Post by JacquieMz »

Ok, some of you have read about my problems, if not, then if you are interested read my previous posts.

Here is the latest disaster....
I called around to find a dentist, periodontist and oral surgury group to help me get the work I need done after the braces come off and the teeth fall out. THEY WON'T TOUCH ME! I am too much a liablity and they are afraid of a lawsuit. So it comes down to me having to use the Periodontist that got me in this mess in the first place. How can i have any faith in his ability after allowing me to get braces with my perio condition in the first place? So I am faced with the prospect of going to my Ortho to have the braces removed (the bottom front teeth will positivly fall out as soon as they are removed, and I am sure a few of the others will with the effort used to remove the bands) and walk around toothless until I can find someone to work on me.

The other night I had the dream again, I was taking off the archwire and my teeth started to fall out into the sink, and then when I was trying to tell my son and sister what was happening, more started falling out and I woke up crying, woke my husband up too. The nightmare is a reality for me :(

Beware people, the doctors are not in this for your best interest, it is money. The perio made money on me and helped his friend make $4800, and what do I get left with.....NO TEETH

Jackie :x
Last edited by JacquieMz on Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Attagirl2
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:19 am
Location: Ohio

#2 Post by Attagirl2 »

Jacquie, I am sorry to hear your problems. Are you anywhere near a teaching Dental School - maybe they would take you on for teaching purposes? don't know, just throwing out an idea.

I wish the best for you.
Had Damon 3 / Smart Clips for almost 2 years
Now in Hawley upper 10 hours/day, permanent lower retainers

newmetal
Posts: 600
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:46 pm

#3 Post by newmetal »

Ahh that sounds really bad man. Id try what attagirl said. Good luck

Newmetal
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dena
Posts: 332
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:59 am
Location: USA

#4 Post by dena »

I'm not familiar with your situation so maybe these things have already been said. I think the idea of going to the dental teaching hospital is a good idea. At least you could talk to people there--they might be able to advise you further.

Have you checked into your legal options? Do you have any sort of legal recourse?
Image

four bicuspids removed 1/3/06
clear uppers and metal lowers placed 1/5/06
timeframe for braces: 24-30 months

Delag
Posts: 834
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:46 pm

#5 Post by Delag »

I would go the the best in town and offer to sign any waiver they wanted - as long as they would agree to work on me. There is no way you can keep going the the butcher that did this to you.

rsprouse
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:46 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Really bad problem, any idea's?

#6 Post by rsprouse »

Ok, some of you have read about my problems, if not, then if you are interested read my previous posts.

Here is the latest disaster....
I called around to find a dentist, periodontist and oral surgury group to help me get the work I need done after the braces come off and the teeth fall out. THEY WON'T TOUCH ME! I am too much a liablity and they are afraid of a lawsuit. So it comes down to me having to use the Periodontist that got me in this mess in the first place. How can i have any faith in his ability after allowing me to get braces with my perio condition in the first place? So I am faced with the prospect of going to my Ortho to have the braces removed (the bottom front teeth will positivly fall out as soon as they are removed, and I am sure a few of the others will with the effort used to remove the bands) and walk around toothless until I can find someone to work on me.

The other night I had the dream again, I was taking off the archwire and my teeth started to fall out into the sink, and then when I was trying to tell my son and sister what was happening, more started falling out and I woke up crying, woke my husband up too. The nightmare is a reality for me :(

Beware people, the doctors are not in this for your best interest, it is money. The perio made money on me and helped his friend make $4800, and what do I get left with.....NO TEETH

Jackie :x
Hi Jackie,

I just read over your other thread and the first thing I would say is take a deep breath. This is simply an opportunity to solve a problem. Like anything in the real world, there are variables that come and go and sometimes things happen that people did not plan. I really disagree with your comment about doctors don't care about patients. I can tell you that sometimes as a clinician you take on a case where you know you will make no money as it will help a patient. It would be great to offer free care to everyone in the world, but that is not realistic. I don't have the proper clinical details to comment on your case, but I would be shocked and disgusted if your Ortho and Periodontist only had money on their mind and not proper care for you the patient. Based on your treatment time, I am pretty comfortable in saying that you are not a profitable case and they don't want to prolong your treatment unnecessarily.

The first thing I want to comment on is Periodontal disease is a progressive and diminishing disease. It takes many years even in the worst cases. It can be accelerated by orthodontic forces applied to your teeth. But it takes time for the bone levels to decrease. Where you diligent about cleanings and proper home care in the past 3 years while in braces? Were you on 6 month recall's or a shorter period? Did you have annual bite wing x-rays? Were you cleared by a GP or Periodontist before beginning ortho treatment? How many times were you pregnant while in braces? Are you taking any bisphophonates for bone loss?

There is no harm in seeking different opinions before making a decision. I would be surprised if there are only 2 Periodontists in your area. Talk to friends, neighbors, colleagues and see if anyone can recommend a good one. Everyone has a different treatment philosophy. Some people are more eager to extract and may think a tooth is not worth saving. Whereas another clinician may be more conservative and offer other options. Don't throw in the towel yet until you have all the facts.

You would have to have a severe amount of bone loss for teeth to fall out while being debanded. Hang in there and don't give up just yet, there are clinicians out there that can and will help, you just have to find the right person for you and your case.
I would go the the best in town and offer to sign any waiver they wanted - as long as they would agree to work on me. There is no way you can keep going the the butcher that did this to you.
A Lawyer would laugh you out of a court room and all the way to the bank if you did this. As a doctor you take an oath to "Do no harm". Even if a patient signs a waiver, you cannot perform a procedure that is not needed and will not benefit the patient. Sometimes the worst happens and a patient is harmed, but I like to wear rose colored glasses and think that most people do have their patients' best interest in mind.

Regards,
Rory

JacquieMz
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:38 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Really bad problem, any idea's?

#7 Post by JacquieMz »

The first thing I want to comment on is Periodontal disease is a progressive and diminishing disease. It takes many years even in the worst cases. It can be accelerated by orthodontic forces applied to your teeth. But it takes time for the bone levels to decrease. Where you diligent about cleanings and proper home care in the past 3 years while in braces? Were you on 6 month recall's or a shorter period? Did you have annual bite wing x-rays? Were you cleared by a GP or Periodontist before beginning ortho treatment? How many times were you pregnant while in braces? Are you taking any bisphophonates for bone loss?


Yes I know it is progressive. I was told by my Periodontist that it was under control and that braces would help move the teeth back that had shifted. Yes I was diligent about cleanings, I have always had regular cleanings before and during the perio problems, I never had tartar buildup that usually causes this, the periodontist said it is the bacteria that caused my problem, even with all the cleanings and home care, it was not controlable, during the braces I went every 3 months, then my perio's office told me that they don't need to be doing my cleanings and I should go to my general dentists, went there and got a horrible cleaning, they were afraid to touch me, let alone give me a good cleaning, so went back to the perio for my cleanings. All the time I have been in braces my periodontist has not retaken x-rays to see how the bones are doing. NO I was never pregnant while in braces, I had my last child at 27, I am now 40, got braces put on at 37.

The strangest thing is this last periodontist that I saw last week pointed out that the bone was well below where my original periodontist said it was, there are two different shades of gray on the x-ray. Could he have been wrong all along about the severity of the bone loss?

All I know is that the teeth are going to fall out, and no one will seem to help me. I am making more calls this week to see if I can find another group that will help me. I am not blameing any dentists for my condition, but I feel that the care I have received has been innapropriate for my condition, and hopefully others in the same situation will get all the facts before a dentist offers treatments that may do more harm than good, as has happened in my case.

Jackie

ellebee
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:00 am

#8 Post by ellebee »

Jackie I am so sorry that you are having such a difficult problem.

My mom lost all her teeth due to peridontal disease (she did not have braces and she is close to 80 years old).

The solution they found for her was implants (an artificial tooth root replacement). They are sort of like permanent false teeth that are attached to the remaining bone.

Here is a good description:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_implants

It's not ideal but it is a lot better than losing all your teeth and having to wear dentures.

Good luck.

Elle
Spacers, Nov. 1; Braced Nov. 8, 2006; Braces off March 26, 2008, just short of 17 months. Glad it's over but the jury is still out on whether the game was worth the candle.

JacquieMz
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:38 pm
Location: New Jersey

#9 Post by JacquieMz »

Yes I have asked about implants. I was told that the problem that caused the bone loss in the first place could affect the bone around the implant also and I would have the same problem. I would need bone graphs in order to have implants anyway. My bone loss is extensive and I shouldn't have been advised that braces were a good choice in the first place. :(

rsprouse
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:46 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Really bad problem, any idea's?

#10 Post by rsprouse »

Yes I know it is progressive. I was told by my Periodontist that it was under control and that braces would help move the teeth back that had shifted. Yes I was diligent about cleanings, I have always had regular cleanings before and during the perio problems,
Good, regular cleanings are very important for long term success.
I never had tartar buildup that usually causes this
Supragingival plaque usually leads to gingivitis. It is when the plaque gets subgingival into the sulcus and creates pocketing that you you cannot reliably clean that causes the disease to progress into PD.
the periodontist said it is the bacteria that caused my problem, even with all the cleanings and home care, it was not controllable, during the braces I went every 3 months, then my perio's office told me that they don't need to be doing my cleanings and I should go to my general dentists, went there and got a horrible cleaning, they were afraid to touch me, let alone give me a good cleaning, so went back to the perio for my cleanings.
You need to be your own patient advocate. If you are getting the run around then stand up for yourself (which it sounds like you are doing). Your GP did the right thing to refer you back to a specialist if s/he was uncomfortable in offering proper care. The GP does not have the same specialty training and experience that your Perio should have, I would put the pressure on them.
All the time I have been in braces my periodontist has not retaken x-rays to see how the bones are doing. NO I was never pregnant while in braces, I had my last child at 27, I am now 40, got braces put on at 37.
Pregnancy causes your hormones to go nuts (that is a technical term :D ) which can lead to an increase in bacteria growth in the oral cavity. Plus most clinicians are a bit more cautious during pregnancy.
The strangest thing is this last periodontist that I saw last week pointed out that the bone was well below where my original periodontist said it was, there are two different shades of gray on the x-ray. Could he have been wrong all along about the severity of the bone loss?
It is possible that some of the radiographs were angulated incorrectly giving the impression that your bone level was different. It is hard to guess what different lucencies are in an x-ray without seeing it.
All I know is that the teeth are going to fall out, and no one will seem to help me. I am making more calls this week to see if I can find another group that will help me. I am not blameing any dentists for my condition, but I feel that the care I have received has been innapropriate for my condition, and hopefully others in the same situation will get all the facts before a dentist offers treatments that may do more harm than good, as has happened in my case.

Jackie
Don't be so certain that your teeth are going to fall out. I see a few people have suggested implants. If you have severe bone loss and a bacteria problem then you are not likely a good candidate for implants. But there will be options. Whether it is implants, or using some of your teeth for abutments of an overdenture (or partial) or splinting or.....my point is there are clinical options to preserve and move forward. It will depend on how much time and money you are willing to invest into maintaining what you have. One of my favorite patients was diagnosed with PD in her early 40's. Long story short is that she turned things around and has very good home care these days. 30 years later and she still has all of her teeth. Yes she has some mobility and leftover byproducts of PD, but she has overcome and controlled the disease.

Also, take a look at what medications you take or may have taken and your familial history. Anything that may have caused a chemical imbalance? Did your Perio mention anything about a Cariogram to determine the bacteria types present in your mouth? Do you suffer from dry mouth? If you let me know what part of the country you are in I can take a look and see if I can find any research or specific specialists in your area that may be able to help. Good luck in achieving a good solution.

Best,
Rory

finally
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:29 pm
Location: California

#11 Post by finally »

I just got my braces in and Jackie's posts are scaring the heck out of me. I just got an extraction today and two baby teeth removed on my uppers (I'm 30) and I am completely paranoid about my teeth coming out now.

What are the signs to look for??

ngbraces
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:40 pm

#12 Post by ngbraces »

Jackie,

I have just read your thread and felt so sorry about what you have been thru. In fact, I'm 52, having bone loss, on Boniva for more than a year, and began wearing braces about 1 month ago!! I didn't know about this post before I got the braces. I guess I wouldn't go for braces had I read your story... Now, things have started, I can't stop... Actually, I did mention about my bone loss when I first talked to my ortho. The issue was unable to get her attention. And shame on me, I didn't worry much about that either. I think at the time, my too strong desire to get my teeth straight after so many years avoiding looking at my mouth did blind me from other issues.. So far, my braces didn't cause any big problem yet; however, I certainly will bring my concern related to bone loss to my ortho on the next appointment.

My prayers are for you Jackie. I don’t know much about ortho to offer help. I hope whatever you choose for the next step – dentures or implants –will go smoothly and bring you the best result as you want. If I were one of the Dr’s who are treating now or will be treating you in the future, I definitely would devote all my effort with no charge at all to somewhat compensate what you have been enduring for the past years.

Best wishes to you.

Joanna20
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:00 pm
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

#13 Post by Joanna20 »

Hey, sorry to hear that you’re going through that :(
If it’s any help to you my first ortho 7 years ago screwed me up too, she was supposed to wait until my wisdoms came out and extract both wisdoms and premolars, instead she made my smile really bucky and “flarefulâ€

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Next Ortho. consultations: Dec. 26 & January 16
Next Higienist consultation: February

ngbraces
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:40 pm

#14 Post by ngbraces »

Absolutely, Karen! I will bring this issue up to my ortho and get perio consult even though I never had perio problem. (Does everybody need to get a clear record on perio before the braces are put on?) I'm worried about my bone loss, but you never know, it can lead to anything else. I hope my teeth will get thru the bracing process smoothly in 2 years...

Jackie, Are you on medication and follow-up for bone loss (X-ray, scanning..) ? If this is a really big issue for your health, more than the teeth need to get attention. Did you talk to the doctor who treats you for bone loss about your dental issue? He/she may have helpful input for you.

finally
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:29 pm
Location: California

#15 Post by finally »

Can you detect gum disease from x-rays? Shouldn't the ortho be the party to make sure that gums, bones, and teeth are going to be okay with braces or does the dentist that recommends you do this?

What are signs of gum disease? Never mind. I'm going to google it.

G'nite, all!
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