why my braces have no lig?

Message

#16 Post by **boxerinno** » Thu May 18, 2006 7:22 am

An interesting thought boxerinno ... but I think if there was any truth in it, all our orthos would be using self ligating brackets.

My ortho did use damons ... but has stopped due to having too many problems with breakages and doors jamming ... plus other issues he didn't share with me.

Again this is a case of personal preference on the part of our trained professions, who will definitely offer us the best treatment possible. If your oral hygiene is good, there will not be an issue with type of brackets used!

look, i'm not into dentistry, but that makes sense. food particles (e.g. tiny molecules of simple sugar) can fall under the ligs while eating or drinking and maybe you're at a restaruant and won't brush your teeth in 30mins or so and there you go - heaven for acids which lead to cavity. it won't happen soon, but in a year or two of wearing braces these situations can/do repeat often. i, for example, always have small bottle of mouthwash with me, so i just skip to the toilet and flush my mouth and that's it - no build up.
this theory was brought to me by my ortho, backed by my aunt (who's a dentist herself) and by my ex (who's now graduating as a dentist). they don't know each other, so it's not a plot or smth.

at first i wanted to get white/clear braces (i thought it would be better for my working environment. but it's a fashion trend right now), but they all have convinced me to get these damon ones. and i gotta say, i've never had any problems eating peanuts, walnuts, popcorn, chewing gums and even enjoying yumm curry (gonna go prepare one now,

) so far. but that also depends on how bad are your teeth positioned in the first place. whereas, almost all people i know who had whites ones have much more problems with breakages.

i do agree with you on the matter of good, no, perfect oral hygiene!

lastly, dentists live from their patients and their problems. so i don't have to emphasize much on the fact that ligatures and braces in general bring more money in the long run, besides being a part of each bracket.
and hey, why did they invent braces without ligs, among others, but to minimze the risk of cavities and shorten the wearing period in the first place...
in the end, it's as you said, it's all matter of personal preference.

#17 Post by **jcdamon3** » Thu May 18, 2006 9:17 am

lastly, dentists live from their patients and their problems. so i don't have to emphasize much on the fact that ligatures and braces in general bring more money in the long run, besides being a part of each bracket.

Actually I have to respectfully disagree with this. My ortho uses damons because he can make MORE money with them. 1) he charges more 2) he can have appointment further aparts

Adjustments are usually either a lig change or a wire change. With Damons since you don't have to have an appointment for just a lig change you can completely eliminate those appointments. That is why normally appointments with regular brackets are 4-6 weeks apart and with self ligating more like 8-10 weeks apart.

#18 Post by **boxerinno** » Thu May 18, 2006 1:42 pm

Actually I have to respectfully disagree with this. My ortho uses damons because he can make MORE money with them. 1) he charges more 2) he can have appointment further aparts

Adjustments are usually either a lig change or a wire change. With Damons since you don't have to have an appointment for just a lig change you can completely eliminate those appointments. That is why normally appointments with regular brackets are 4-6 weeks apart and with self ligating more like 8-10 weeks apart.

you didn't get me right. when you have more rubber (meaning ligatures here) and basically more metal/ceramic or whatever else in your mouth, hence the higher risk of faulty acids which lead to cavities. therefore, your teeth will most probably get more cavities in future. so the dentist will charge you more for doing new fillings. whether it's on a type of braces system or fixing a cavity or even doing a root canal, you name it. that's what i said above. i'm not saying dentists have this great and samaritan desire to save you/our money. oh come on, we all need money to survive and make a living, therefore it's just a question of one's personal common sense if he/she will put up with bad dentists/orthodontists who have even worse attitudes, have sky high prices and can't do their job right.

btw, i feel sorry you had to pay more for damon braces, because i've actually saved around 600 euro with this system. i guess i was lucky with that. oh, and i visit my ortho every two weeks.

#19 Post by **jcdamon3** » Thu May 18, 2006 5:29 pm

so the dentist will charge you more for doing new fillings. whether it's on a type of braces system or fixing a cavity or even doing a root canal, you name it.

Sorry - gotta disagree again. My ortho and my dentist are in no way affiliated with each other and my ortho would not gain financially in any way by me getting a cavity. If you went to your dentist for ortho work, that may be why you are getting charged less.

#20 Post by **Brandyleigh35** » Thu May 18, 2006 5:47 pm

I have to agree with the fact that self ligating brackets are better. Now I have never had metal ones, but I can tell you that I don't have near the problems with food getting stuck in them. I eat, I swish with water, do a little strategic sucking in certain spots, and I'm good to go. My son says the same thing about his, and that all of his friends who have metal have a lot more trouble keeping them clean. When I get my wires changed my ortho grabs the wire in the center where the crimp is and pulls towards him. The wire slides out of all the brackets and it is simply a matter of opening the doors on the brackets and inserting a new wire. Its very quick, and a lot less painful on sore teeth.

My son and I have Time 2 Self ligating brackets by American orthodontics. They are better at not collecting tarter, and are easy to open and close. The assistants at the orthos office always tell me how much they love these brackets when I go in for adjustments, as they are just so user friendly.

As for movement, both my son and I have seen tremendous movement in less than 3 months, and our adjustments are only done every 8 weeks instead of 5-6, so it saves running to the ortho all the time. I'm very pleased with my brackets, and totally think self ligating is the way to go. JMHO.

Brandy

#21 Post by **Brandyleigh35** » Thu May 18, 2006 7:13 pm

Oh Karen,
I haven't had any other brackets to compare with. I go to an ortho that pretty much services my entire area. I know a ton of kids from my school who have him, as well as several adults that do. All pretty much have metal brackets, unless you are like me and research things to death and request self ligating. My statements are strictly from comparing my treatment, and my sons, to all the people we know who are going to the same guy. He is very skilled but there does seem to my friends and I, and my sons friends as well that there is a distinct difference in our bracket experience. I'm certainly not saying that you can't get the same results with metal, just that from our experience it has been more pleasant and seems to be better.

As for hygeine I do agree nothing can beat out good oral hygiene. But sometimes it is just not possible or conveniant to clean your teeth. In those circumstances it seems that self ligating are easier to clean with limited resources like just water and a cup. I totally brush my teeth after eating because I think it is important, BUT with that being said, I certainly wouldn't or don't have to as the food just doesn't really hang onto the self ligating brackets. As I understand it, it is usually food getting caught in or around the ligs that is the problem with metal. With no ligs you don't have that problem. My son says his friend who have metal w/ligs have to brush after lunch as they always have food that gets stuck in them. He doesn't have this problem. It could just be the brand that we have...no idea, its just what I have noticed.

Brandy

#22 Post by **boxerinno** » Fri May 19, 2006 3:47 am

Meryaten wrote:
Whislt it is probably true that elastomeric ties tend to support bacteria more than self-ligating brackets (I did read an academic study to that effect), proper oral hygiene should mitigate any increased risk adequately.

However, boxerinno, your assertion here is faulty:

but that makes sense. food particles (e.g. tiny molecules of simple sugar) can fall under the ligs while eating or drinking and maybe you're at a restaruant and won't brush your teeth in 30mins or so and there you go - heaven for acids which lead to cavity. it won't happen soon, but in a year or two of wearing braces these situations can/do repeat often. i, for example, always have small bottle of mouthwash with me, so i just skip to the toilet and flush my mouth and that's it - no build up.

Remember that the rubber ligature ties do not make any contact at all with the teeth - they merely secure the archwire to the brackets. And, as someone with ligature ties on my upper arch, I can safely say that I too can "skip" to the washroom after a meal, and I don't just swoosh a bit of mouthwash around either - I brush. Which of us is therefore likely to have more microscopic food particles thrashing around in their mouth - not only nestling against the archwires, brackets and ligs, but also nestling safely between our teeth?
no, my assertion is not a fautly one. and yes, i am aware that the rubber ligs don't make any contact with the teeth. but, any food in your mouth, whether it's on the teeth, under the tongue or whereever it may be is rotting and therefore creating perfect environment for destroying teeth. therefore, it doesn't matter if food or sugars from beverages are here or there in your mouth, as long as these particles are in the mouth, it's a bad situation to start with. hence, emphasize on oral hygiene. secondly, i don't have to brush my teeth all the time and destroy tooth enamel, but simply get a tootpick (if i had smth to eat) or just a mouthwash (if i drank smth) - and that's it. this is the biggest value of this type of braces. topic finished.

when you have more rubber (meaning ligatures here) and basically more metal/ceramic or whatever else in your mouth, hence the higher risk of faulty acids which lead to cavities. therefore, your teeth will most probably get more cavities in future

I am not following here at all your reasoning that someone with self-ligating brackets necessarily has less metal/ceramic in their mouth? OK, ceramic brackets, I'll grant you, are a bit bigger. But metal brackets? And as to rubber, given your reasoning, ought not every user of elastics be petrified?

Bottom line is that adequate oral hygiene is your friend, whether you be in self-ligating brackets, or more conventional ones using elastomerics. Of course, with brackets and wires in place, it's always harder to keep your mouth clean, but that applies to all of us.

i've never said that someone with self-ligating brackets has less metal/ceramics in mouth. i'm just saying there are no rubber ligatures. and no, users of elastics shouldn't be petrified, cause elastics are not present the whole time during the braces treatment, but should be more conscious about cleaning their teeth.

exactly, bottom line is perfect oral hygiene, which can't be emphasized enough.[/b]

#23 Post by **boxerinno** » Fri May 19, 2006 3:58 am

jcdamon3 wrote:
so the dentist will charge you more for doing new fillings. whether it's on a type of braces system or fixing a cavity or even doing a root canal, you name it.
Sorry - gotta disagree again. My ortho and my dentist are in no way affiliated with each other and my ortho would not gain financially in any way by me getting a cavity. If you went to your dentist for ortho work, that may be why you are getting charged less.

don't be sorry, we're just talking and sharing thoughts and experiences.

i'm doing this braces treatment at my dentist who has an orthodontist (which is one of the best, if not the best, in the city if not the whole country). and for our dental prices and their standards, i'm still paying a lot, but don't have to pay even higher amounts, which makes me happy due to the fact that not many people here are taking this kind of braces i have, cause everyone is crazed about colored ligs which don't apply here. you wouldn't believe how many people wear braces, it's a huge trend! unbelieveable.

it doesn't matter if a denstis and an ortho are in the same dental center or not, the point is, in long term effect, we all (braces wearers and those who were) are more likely to develop cavity. and that's a fact. it's just that there are many other factors which may prolong that. in the end, if you get more cavities (as a side effect of wearing braces) you will need money to pay for fillings. you can go to your dentist or find another one or even travel to japan to find a new one. bottom line is, you will spend more money. but, money is here to be spent, huh?

#24 Post by **boxerinno** » Fri May 19, 2006 4:12 am

@ KK (i'll write it like this, cause replying on this board is not coming out visually as i'd like... i'm doing smth wrong, definitely.)

yup, our mouths are full of bacteria (to hell with them, lol), but bacteria and acids derived from food & beverage are much more harmful for teeth and healthy mouth than bacteria which, for example, build up while you sleep with your mouth open. and yeah, you're right. it doesn't matter which brackets you have, it's up to you to minimze the risk or let it grow on its own.

This question is purely from a curiosity point ... why do you visit your ortho every two weeks, when part of the advertising hype about damons is that your appointments will be further apart and therefore cause less disruption to your weekly routine? I know this is advertising b/s, as it's the archwires that allow the time frame between appointments to be extended, and also it's connected to what your ortho is trying to achieve at that point with your teeth. But I'm curious coz your appointments are so close together ... I'd have major difficulties making time to see my ortho ever second week ... so I'm hoping that isn't necessary during my treatment!

as for your question...
i visit my ortho every two weeks and yeah that's a lot. i thought i wouldn't, but she told me i'd have to. yeah, advertizing sure is b/s. visitng ortho every 14 days is sometimes a pain (especially, if i'm travelling somewhere), but i guess this is a vip treatment (side effect of being a figure in media) and everyone in the office treats me like i'm special. frankly, it has its moments, but mostly it's annoying. oh, and probably cause they know i'd crucify them and their work publicly if they'd do anything wrong or if the outcome wouldn't be satifactory.

#25 Post by **jcdamon3** » Fri May 19, 2006 12:12 pm

Boxerinno:

we all (braces wearers and those who were) are more likely to develop cavity. and that's a fact. it's just that there are many other factors which may prolong that. in the end, if you get more cavities (as a side effect of wearing braces) you will need money to pay for fillings. you can go to your dentist or find another one or even travel to japan to find a new one. bottom line is, you will spend more money. but, money is here to be spent, huh? Wink

According to the dentists on this website:

http://dentalcarestamford.com/wizard.ht ... 0Dentistry

Q. Do braces cause teeth to decay?

A. Braces do not cause decay. Too much sugar and plaque accumulation cause decay. However, braces make it a lot harder to effectively clean your teeth. As a result, we recommend adults and children with braces get their teeth cleaned every three months, use a Water Pik or Hydrofloss irrigator to assist in home care and prescription strength home fluoride daily.

and

Q. Is there an easy way to keep teeth clean when you have braces?

A. There is no easy way to keep teeth clean with braces. We recommend that anyone with braces come for professional cleanings every 3 months, and in addition to a special Prodentec tooth-brush, use a Hydrofloss irrigator.

I myself plan on not getting any cavities while in braces. My teeeth are cleaner now than before braces.

#26 Post by **boxerinno** » Sun May 21, 2006 5:56 am

@ meryaten

look, just to get one thing clear. i couldn't care less if you're brushing your teeth after every meal or every breath you take. i also couldn't care less if you'd run to the restroom(s) and brush your teeth everywhere you might be. and i sure don't care what your dentist is telling you.
i just care about sharing my own experience and information i have gathered from either my dentist, ortho or friends and family members who are either wearing braces or had braces before. i am also interested in common people and their own experience and not what some studies (which are usually funded by either corporations interested in positive aspect(s) of their products on market or some probably biased scientists) are claiming. okay? okay.
second, chill down and drink a gallon of strong camomile tea or meditate for a while, cause you sure sound stressed out. or simply get yourself a good long massage to relax. okay? okay.
thirdly, that study you have in one of your bombardments is senseless. as it says that "teeth ligated with elastomeric rings were more prone to bleeding" and that only a slighter number of microorganisms was detected in teeth ligated with elastomeric rings. that is preposterous! anyone with common sense can understand that there are obviously much more bacteria involved with elastomeric rings, because a minor increase in these microorganisms surely couldn't/wouldn't be the cause of gum/tooth bleedings whereas here it is, or? huh? come on, wake up!

your ortho and your dentist don't have to be affiliated at all. jesus, how many times do i have to say this!!! they don't even have to be in the same city/town/village or whereever. orthodontists are not the ones involved in your fillings and they are not responsible for any future cavities that you may get. BUT, after wearing braces, your/our teeth are much more prone to cavities and that's a fact. and no, orthodontists are not in a conspiracy with dentists. or do you think they are? hmmm... don't go all scully and mulder on me now. and yes, i can safely say, meryaten, scroll up to one of my posts and read what i've said about that. and sip more camomile.

you should scroll up some more, because i've never said that i am or am willing to be a professional in dental care and i know well all advantages of this braces which are in my mouth. we are talking about ligatures in this topic and not about alfa & omega of every braces system. okay? okay.
i am a patient as you are, a simple braces wearer gathering and sharing information with others on this forum which i find extremely helpful. i am not, like yourself, acting all smart and basically crossing the line of good manners. before you came along, KK, jcdamon3, others incl. and i had a nice discussion on an adult level and with much understanding. and as the song says... the only one who could ever teach me...

besides, if i'd ever lower myself to your level (which i did in this marathon post) i'd show you a really wide array of diplomas and experience in my field of work... but i won't. got my point? don't be ocean with others. wash your teeth with toothpaste, motor acid (kids, don't you EVER try this!! i'm just using it as a figure of speech.), again i don't care, it's your mouth, but i don't plan running off to toilet at every restaurant with a brush instead of toothpicking, but waiting an hour or so and then brushing at a conveniece of my home with an electric brush is my solution. though, i guess it's a matter of having an enjoyable and fulfilled life to live, or?

i do agree with everyone here and i guess this is the only matter to which we can both relate - oral hygiene. i think i've never brushed or head a sensation of clean teeth and mouth in general like this ever before. my ortho is also telling me she's proud of me and the level of hygiene i'm maintaining, on the contrary to her other patients. but i guess we all, here on this forum are, to begin with, extremely aware of our teeth.

lastly, meyaten, don't bother writing anything else in this topic, because i sure won't read a word you say. thanx.

@KK
oh, maybe crucifying was a tough word...

i'm not a monster (maybe meryaten wouldn't agree on this... lol), but my column and tv documentaries packed with reviews of tourism related businesses has caused some commotion due to some reviews on questionable offices and treatments. you can, nowadays, find dental offices, plastic surgery clinics which offer cheaper services and also provide tourism infrastructure, because of their attractive rural or coastal location. e.g. many germans are travelling to south africa for plastic surgery via travel agencies or health clinics offering 7-10 day packages including treatment, accomodation and tourist sightseeing. although, i couldn't imagine myself going for a lipo or a root canal and then visiting a national park on a swollen tummy or mouth...
therefore, they know who i am and are careful treating me. sometimes i'm not really sure if following this career path was a good choice since sometimes people praise you and sometimes they curse you. that golden middle is usually missing among people on the streets...

but, truth needs to be told, right?

by the way, KK, i can't wait to see your mouth in a month time!

i find it miraculous how teeth move and reposition in jaw and am stunned at some photos of people and their results!

#27 Post by **mandaluv** » Wed May 24, 2006 4:36 pm

i got braced a month ago and i have self ligating braces, too. but mine are "system R's" (www.gacinovation.com). i have all metal on the bottom and clear with metal archwire on the top. the bottom ones have the snap down brackets that the wire snaps directly into. however, i may not have self ligating on the top, although i don't have ligs. i actually have tiny metal wires that are wrapped around the bracket and holding the wire on to serve the same purpose as ligs would. does this mean that my uppers are not self ligating? also, the self ligating are supposed to be more painless and not poke your mouth as much.. however, i KNOW my bottoms are self ligating and they hurt more than my uppers.. they even killed the inside of my bottom lip, which is something they were NOT supposed to do. but i guess one convenience is that i have had them for a month and i still don't have to go back for my first adjustment until june 27th!