Found out I've been taken advantage of by a dentist

[SingleJawMelb]

I am definitely planning on doing that tomorrow morning. I also plan on contacting more orthodontists for consultations to get a better idea of what I need to do. I am also thinking of pursuing legal action, because I have a feeling he's not going to take it well when I plan on speaking to him about what I've found out. I just really want to have my teeth less protruded, but I'm also scared that over time the roots of my teeth will shorten. I also don't want to spend another $5-6,000+ on braces, so I want to see if I could perhaps get my teeth extracted for $600 now and then continue my treatment with the dentist I have even if he isn't as competent as an orthodontist.

Firstly you haven't got a "second opinion" you have already seen three other orthos. By the sounds of it they are all saying the same thing. So getting a forth opinion isn't going to change anything.

You need to ask the ortho what they require - removal of braces, treatment time and if your teeth are ok to have further brace treatment.

You need to find your contract/treatment plan and see what is written down.

I can't help you much about the legal aspect because I know someone in your position who was able to go through the legal system at no cost and get it resolved. America sounds like it's plenty of money in legal fees.

How old are you and can you get someone who is a bit less emotional about the situation. I know you are invested in the situation but you sound like you won't be the most objective person when confronting the dentist.

If it was myself I would personally get a treatment plan from an ortho, go back to the dentist and make an appointment stating you aren't happy with the final result and need to discuss. Tell me what you wanted doing, what has not been done and ask how he's going to rectify it. This may be better done in a letter?

If the dentist states nothing is wrong, tell him you've seen three orthos and the plans they will implement is vastly different than his. Unfortunately ortho work isn't certified - any dentist can do it. Regardless even people who see orthos have issues.

Work out what you want (perhaps a refund equivalent to the orthos fee, removal of teeth at no costs etc. I really don't know).

Perhaps it's best contacting a dental board in your area? Can you ask your ortho for advice - that is tricky but you never know what they will say.

Please relax, I know it's harder said than done but at this moment in time you need to be in rational mind. Google DEAR MAN DBT, it's a great interpersonal skill.

Be thankful that no teeth have been pulled unnecessarily, that you haven't had any teeth die and your facial features haven't changed dramatically. You have lost time and money but things can be changed.

You're absolutely right. And you've been a great help to me. I actually met with another orthodontist yesterday who I'm confident in continuing my treatment where he plans to have me in braces for 2 years and remove extractions to fix the protrusion, as well as other steps to correct my bite and appearance. This orthodontist required a cat scan which revealed that I had healthy roots, which is a huge relief. I can't wait to get started on my treatment with him. Only thing I'm worried about now is the meeting I plan to have wih my dentist. I wasn't assertive in my request to meet him because I was unhappy, but I plan on being assertive confident and not nervous when I meet with him. I was told by someone at the orthodontist I visited that if my dentist refuses to refund me at least a portion of the money then I should bring up the dental board and how I'll complain to them if he doesn't, I was told this would scare him. He's seemed uneasy and scared after I called yesterday to ask for my treatment records, I received several missed calls and text from him asking me to call him back which I found very telling. but anyways...he isn't an orthodontist so he needs to act like he isn't and stop taking on extreme cases he can't handle in hopes of the patient not finding out. but I found out, 4 days before I was scheduled to take my braces off. wow. God is looking out for me. because I really thought I was going to live with being self conscious about my face for the rest of my life, but that isn't the case anymore .

He's legally ok to do braces, that's the issue. Dentistry isn't as regulated as other professions, and general dentists can do crown/vaneers/braces because literally no one will die. Other professions require training - eg you have to be a qualified surgeon to do some types of surgery. Dentistry is a free for all.

You are like me - terrible at confrontation. I think a lettter would be good. You can get your point across, he can think about it, it's also a legal document

I'm not sure you will get the full amount back and don't rush into demanding anything. You are still angry, but you will reach a resolution.

Your patient records are yours, but it's also not as straight forward as taking them. I changed orthos and got my new ortho to request documents and refund (I paid in full). Let your new ortho office deal with the medical records. You don't need them to start treatment because you have the scan.

I would make a courtesy call to your present dentist, say you aren't happy with the results, you need a bit of time before he braces come of but ask for records to be sent to new ortho because you will be perusing treatment with them.

Just slow down, breathe. You are very fortunate your teeth are healthy because that you can't change.

Google DEAR MAN and DBT, gives you a run down of how to ask for something. Feel free to ask for further assistance.

[SingleJawMelb]

You say you went to the dentist to straighten the teeth and fix protrusion. Bear in mind that if you are being told you need 4 extractions that without them, aligning teeth is generally going to result in some protrusion. There is only so much space in an arch. One option to reduce protrusion somewhat can be IPR to create (a comparatively small) amount of space.

On the other hand extraction of four teeth can indeed flatten the profile and change you face shape. You can read views from those who believe it can accelerate facial aging. You say you are a perfectionist. So consider if by going down that route you would then find issue with any such changes.

Regardless, I think you need to move on from this dentist if as you say in your other thread they said "there is nothing else they can do". Plus you are clearly dissatisfied with some of the treatment steps they took.

I desperately wanted to get my protrusion fixed by any means, I told him I wanted extractions as he opposed it. he wasn't in favor of it when 4 orthodontists said that it is what I needed, so based on that he's almost a fraud. he said that my face would flatten, but when I mentioned this concern of his to the orthodontists they stated that a flat face wouldn't happen in my case because my protusion is severe, they said that a flat face occurs when teeth extraction is performed on patients whose teeth does not protrude enough. my dentist performed ipr to see if it would help any and it didn't. next step should have been extractions. his excuses for not wanting me to get extractions are all bs, he just has no experience dealing with patients with my type of case. I do find myself as a perfectionist sometimes but during my treatment with my dentist I was being patient with my dentist waiting for him to finally fix the one thing that he was supposed to fix, and it never happened. now I'm frustrated, and will get what I deserve. they have been playing games with me for too long.

He's not a fraud. Me doing your teeth is fraud. He wasn't able to fix the agreed issue possibly due to lack of experience/training

[braceface234]

You say you went to the dentist to straighten the teeth and fix protrusion. Bear in mind that if you are being told you need 4 extractions that without them, aligning teeth is generally going to result in some protrusion. There is only so much space in an arch. One option to reduce protrusion somewhat can be IPR to create (a comparatively small) amount of space.

On the other hand extraction of four teeth can indeed flatten the profile and change you face shape. You can read views from those who believe it can accelerate facial aging. You say you are a perfectionist. So consider if by going down that route you would then find issue with any such changes.

Regardless, I think you need to move on from this dentist if as you say in your other thread they said "there is nothing else they can do". Plus you are clearly dissatisfied with some of the treatment steps they took.

I desperately wanted to get my protrusion fixed by any means, I told him I wanted extractions as he opposed it. he wasn't in favor of it when 4 orthodontists said that it is what I needed, so based on that he's almost a fraud. he said that my face would flatten, but when I mentioned this concern of his to the orthodontists they stated that a flat face wouldn't happen in my case because my protusion is severe, they said that a flat face occurs when teeth extraction is performed on patients whose teeth does not protrude enough. my dentist performed ipr to see if it would help any and it didn't. next step should have been extractions. his excuses for not wanting me to get extractions are all bs, he just has no experience dealing with patients with my type of case. I do find myself as a perfectionist sometimes but during my treatment with my dentist I was being patient with my dentist waiting for him to finally fix the one thing that he was supposed to fix, and it never happened. now I'm frustrated, and will get what I deserve. they have been playing games with me for too long.

He's not a fraud. Me doing your teeth is fraud. He wasn't able to fix the agreed issue possibly due to lack of experience/training

I guess there are levels to it. I feel he is because he knew he was not experienced. He never had a patient like me in his office, if he did then he would have known what to do. He never referred me to an orthodontist when he knew he couldn't handle it. I would not have someone pay me $4,000 for a treatment that I am not experienced in, a person who would do that is clearly doing it so that they can get paid. I obviously didn't know better when I signed my contract with him, but he did. That's deceitful in my eyes. The concerns I had were never taken seriously, I was always given false hope or given sorry excuses for why they couldn't do whatever it was that I needed done regarding protrusion, crooked molars, and the open bite. It was a "every patient is different" "your teeth looks great" "perfect smile" "teeth in a straight up and down position isn't attractive, i love the protrusion of your teeth" "your teeth is naturally like that and there's nothing we can do"...they were never honest, but for some reason I believed them because even though there were so many red flags I still somewhat trusted them because they were "professionals" and I thought a doctor who went to dental school is fixing my teeth so he must know what he's doing. that's until I visited with orthodontists and got enlightened. i was a test dummy for the doctor who treated me, and that could have been tolerated had I gotten paid for their experiment, but because I was the one who paid them four THOUSAND dollars, I can't tolerate it.

[verso]

He's not a fraud. Me doing your teeth is fraud. He wasn't able to fix the agreed issue possibly due to lack of experience/training

The same would apply to you if you had been the one to work on OP's teeth. You wouldn't be able to fix the issue due to lack of experience and/or training. So then what is the difference? Why would it be fraud if it were you and not fraud if it were him? The answer is simple, and it's more than simply "well he's a dentist and I'm not."

What it comes down to is this: What were the expectations? If this dentist sold OP on the expectation that his protrusion could be fixed without extractions, and that outcome was never realized, then it's essentially fraud. If, however, this dentist sold OP on the expectation that he would DO HIS BEST to fix the protrusion without extractions, then whether the outcome that was hoped for has come to fruition or not is immaterial and the expectation has nevertheless been met; no fraud.

I'm not saying the dentist is deceptive or a fraud. I don't know. I don't have enough information to say one way or the other. But I can certainly envision a very plausible scenario in which he could be considered a fraud. It's not outside the realm of possibility at all. This happens with general contractors all the time and the reason for why they get sued constantly. What were the expectations and were those expectations met as agreed upon?

[SingleJawMelb]

He's not a fraud. Me doing your teeth is fraud. He wasn't able to fix the agreed issue possibly due to lack of experience/training

The same would apply to you if you had been the one to work on OP's teeth. You wouldn't be able to fix the issue due to lack of experience and/or training. So then what is the difference? Why would it be fraud if it were you and not fraud if it were him? The answer is simple, and it's more than simply "well he's a dentist and I'm not."

What it comes down to is this: What were the expectations? If this dentist sold OP on the expectation that his protrusion could be fixed without extractions, and that outcome was never realized, then it's essentially fraud. If, however, this dentist sold OP on the expectation that he would DO HIS BEST to fix the protrusion without extractions, then whether the outcome that was hoped for has come to fruition or not is immaterial and the expectation has nevertheless been met; no fraud.

I'm not saying the dentist is deceptive or a fraud. I don't know. I don't have enough information to say one way or the other. But I can certainly envision a very plausible scenario in which he could be considered a fraud. It's not outside the realm of possibility at all. This happens with general contractors all the time and the reason for why they get sued constantly. What were the expectations and were those expectations met as agreed upon?

Because legally he's allowed to perform the braces, he didn't deceive the OP about his qualifications and legally he didnt cause harm through his actions. Until the dental board change the rules, dentists will be treating patients with braces. So we have to educate one another. The dentist prob did a load of other braces fine, but OP needed extractions. Had he done extractions it prob would be fine.

The dentist didn't give the patient what they expected, we can all agree on that. As payment has already been made it will be harder to negotiate a refund. What's in your contract OP?

[verso]

He's not a fraud. Me doing your teeth is fraud. He wasn't able to fix the agreed issue possibly due to lack of experience/training

The same would apply to you if you had been the one to work on OP's teeth. You wouldn't be able to fix the issue due to lack of experience and/or training. So then what is the difference? Why would it be fraud if it were you and not fraud if it were him? The answer is simple, and it's more than simply "well he's a dentist and I'm not."

What it comes down to is this: What were the expectations? If this dentist sold OP on the expectation that his protrusion could be fixed without extractions, and that outcome was never realized, then it's essentially fraud. If, however, this dentist sold OP on the expectation that he would DO HIS BEST to fix the protrusion without extractions, then whether the outcome that was hoped for has come to fruition or not is immaterial and the expectation has nevertheless been met; no fraud.

I'm not saying the dentist is deceptive or a fraud. I don't know. I don't have enough information to say one way or the other. But I can certainly envision a very plausible scenario in which he could be considered a fraud. It's not outside the realm of possibility at all. This happens with general contractors all the time and the reason for why they get sued constantly. What were the expectations and were those expectations met as agreed upon?

Because legally he's allowed to perform the braces, he didn't deceive the OP about his qualifications and legally he didnt cause harm through his actions. Until the dental board change the rules, dentists will be treating patients with braces. So we have to educate one another. The dentist prob did a load of other braces fine, but OP needed extractions. Had he done extractions it prob would be fine.

The dentist didn't give the patient what they expected, we can all agree on that. As payment has already been made it will be harder to negotiate a refund. What's in your contract OP?

You're confusing fraud with malpractice. The dentist could have been honest and upfront regarding his qualifications and still have sold him on unrealistic, unachievable expectations.

[SingleJawMelb]

The same would apply to you if you had been the one to work on OP's teeth. You wouldn't be able to fix the issue due to lack of experience and/or training. So then what is the difference? Why would it be fraud if it were you and not fraud if it were him? The answer is simple, and it's more than simply "well he's a dentist and I'm not."

What it comes down to is this: What were the expectations? If this dentist sold OP on the expectation that his protrusion could be fixed without extractions, and that outcome was never realized, then it's essentially fraud. If, however, this dentist sold OP on the expectation that he would DO HIS BEST to fix the protrusion without extractions, then whether the outcome that was hoped for has come to fruition or not is immaterial and the expectation has nevertheless been met; no fraud.

I'm not saying the dentist is deceptive or a fraud. I don't know. I don't have enough information to say one way or the other. But I can certainly envision a very plausible scenario in which he could be considered a fraud. It's not outside the realm of possibility at all. This happens with general contractors all the time and the reason for why they get sued constantly. What were the expectations and were those expectations met as agreed upon?

Because legally he's allowed to perform the braces, he didn't deceive the OP about his qualifications and legally he didnt cause harm through his actions. Until the dental board change the rules, dentists will be treating patients with braces. So we have to educate one another. The dentist prob did a load of other braces fine, but OP needed extractions. Had he done extractions it prob would be fine.

The dentist didn't give the patient what they expected, we can all agree on that. As payment has already been made it will be harder to negotiate a refund. What's in your contract OP?

You're confusing fraud with malpractice. The dentist could have been honest and upfront regarding his qualifications and still have sold him on unrealistic, unachievable expectations.

I think malpractice only occurs when something harmful happens to the patient?

[mmkay]

Whether it meets the legal standard of fraud or not, I don't think it's unreasonable to use the word fraud, especially if you were to call it "constructive fraud" (which doesn't require intent). The dentist has had a lot of time to conclude that they lack the skills to complete the course of treatment, and to refer the patient to an orthodontist.

Also, in Australia if a dentist takes on a case that is clearly beyond their current knowledge, then this is grounds for disciplinary action - dentists have a duty to refer you on in such cases (and that would be an ethical responsibility in any western country). Obviously there is a huge grey area, but based on that image it look like there is severe protrusion after 3 years 9 months of treatment, and that was the problem you wanted to fix and were clear about.

Whether you can actually get any money back, on the other hand...

[SingleJawMelb]

I would be making the dentist take out my four teeth, for free.

[iceskate0816]

I don't know if it's necessarily malpractice either, but there has to be someone you can let know what happened so it doesn't happen to others. You have to wonder if it has happened to anyone else already and why no one in his office had said anything.

[braceface234]

He's not a fraud. Me doing your teeth is fraud. He wasn't able to fix the agreed issue possibly due to lack of experience/training

The same would apply to you if you had been the one to work on OP's teeth. You wouldn't be able to fix the issue due to lack of experience and/or training. So then what is the difference? Why would it be fraud if it were you and not fraud if it were him? The answer is simple, and it's more than simply "well he's a dentist and I'm not."

What it comes down to is this: What were the expectations? If this dentist sold OP on the expectation that his protrusion could be fixed without extractions, and that outcome was never realized, then it's essentially fraud. If, however, this dentist sold OP on the expectation that he would DO HIS BEST to fix the protrusion without extractions, then whether the outcome that was hoped for has come to fruition or not is immaterial and the expectation has nevertheless been met; no fraud.

I'm not saying the dentist is deceptive or a fraud. I don't know. I don't have enough information to say one way or the other. But I can certainly envision a very plausible scenario in which he could be considered a fraud. It's not outside the realm of possibility at all. This happens with general contractors all the time and the reason for why they get sued constantly. What were the expectations and were those expectations met as agreed upon?

Because legally he's allowed to perform the braces, he didn't deceive the OP about his qualifications and legally he didnt cause harm through his actions. Until the dental board change the rules, dentists will be treating patients with braces. So we have to educate one another. The dentist prob did a load of other braces fine, but OP needed extractions. Had he done extractions it prob would be fine.

The dentist didn't give the patient what they expected, we can all agree on that. As payment has already been made it will be harder to negotiate a refund. What's in your contract OP?

The contract has no specifics of the treatment or what needed to be accomplished (for ex straightening teeth and fixing protrusion). the contract only mentions the amount of $ I was going to pay him.

[braceface234]

Whether it meets the legal standard of fraud or not, I don't think it's unreasonable to use the word fraud, especially if you were to call it "constructive fraud" (which doesn't require intent). The dentist has had a lot of time to conclude that they lack the skills to complete the course of treatment, and to refer the patient to an orthodontist.

Also, in Australia if a dentist takes on a case that is clearly beyond their current knowledge, then this is grounds for disciplinary action - dentists have a duty to refer you on in such cases (and that would be an ethical responsibility in any western country). Obviously there is a huge grey area, but based on that image it look like there is severe protrusion after 3 years 9 months of treatment, and that was the problem you wanted to fix and were clear about.

Whether you can actually get any money back, on the other hand...

Spot on, thanks for understanding. And yeah, I just don't see how someone with a conscience can take someone's money after they found out they weren't an orthodontist and didn't have the knowledge and skills to take on the case, the proof of this lies within the treatment plans the orthodontist I visited provided. They said it was nowhere near ready, so why should I trust the dentist to continue on with my treatment and not give me the money I paid him for a job he wasn't able to do. I really hope he isn't money hungry and has a conscience to give me some of my money back so I can get the professional treatment from someone who knows what they're doing.

[braceface234]

I don't know if it's necessarily malpractice either, but there has to be someone you can let know what happened so it doesn't happen to others. You have to wonder if it has happened to anyone else already and why no one in his office had said anything.

I might notify the dental board.

[braceface234]

I would be making the dentist take out my four teeth, for free.

Yeah that's not going to cut it for me lol.

[braceface234]

He's not a fraud. Me doing your teeth is fraud. He wasn't able to fix the agreed issue possibly due to lack of experience/training

The same would apply to you if you had been the one to work on OP's teeth. You wouldn't be able to fix the issue due to lack of experience and/or training. So then what is the difference? Why would it be fraud if it were you and not fraud if it were him? The answer is simple, and it's more than simply "well he's a dentist and I'm not."

What it comes down to is this: What were the expectations? If this dentist sold OP on the expectation that his protrusion could be fixed without extractions, and that outcome was never realized, then it's essentially fraud. If, however, this dentist sold OP on the expectation that he would DO HIS BEST to fix the protrusion without extractions, then whether the outcome that was hoped for has come to fruition or not is immaterial and the expectation has nevertheless been met; no fraud.

I'm not saying the dentist is deceptive or a fraud. I don't know. I don't have enough information to say one way or the other. But I can certainly envision a very plausible scenario in which he could be considered a fraud. It's not outside the realm of possibility at all. This happens with general contractors all the time and the reason for why they get sued constantly. What were the expectations and were those expectations met as agreed upon?

So basically, when I went to his office to speak to him about my protrusion and crowded teeth and if he can fix it he said yes, so I signed the financial contract and began treatment. Time passes and throughout treatment I'm consistently asking his dental assistant and him about my protrusion. he made excuses on why he did not want me to get extractions. 2 attempts (ipr, rubber bands) to help fix protrusion and open bite failed because extractions was needed and my protrusion and crowdedness is severe---this info is what I gathered from all the orthodontists I spoke with. The excuses were my face will be flat (this was not true according to the orthodontists when I asked if this was true), and it costs money, or he would deflect from it and say my teeth are fine. So basically he told me he was able to fix something that he has no idea of fixing, and did not care enough about what I needed from the jump. if you aren't an orthodontist, and you take on a case that you are unfamiliar with and blindly promise the patient you will take care of it...you are incompetent and a fraud. that's just how I feel.