Relationships with Braces

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#31 Post by **Pixel Witch** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:33 pm

kudos213 wrote:
I'll respond to a few of these comments. Just because I am questioning why everyone is so positive does not mean I have a negative association with being braced. I made the decision myself to get braced, paid for it myself, and will continue with the treatment to the end. I don't regret it one bit. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that I want to always be told that braces "are cool" or that "whoever doesn't like me because of my braces probably wasn't worth liking in the first place." (I'm paraphrasing, of course). And why is basing how you feel about someone on looks AS WELL as other things shallow? Perhaps health reasons contribute to people getting braced, but my insurance carrier recognizes braces as a cosmetic procedure, so if you're not so vain or shallow yourself then you shouldn't mind how your teeth look. Why are you wasting your money on wires and brackets, appearance apparently doesn't matter to you. Oh, what's that? It does? Then why is it so wrong when i'm unattracted to a girl in braces then? How is that different?

No, the reality is when I meet a girl that I like, that I have a fair shot with, but who ultimately ends up cancelling on me or turning me down my first thought goes to the braces. Why is it shallow to be attracted to someone attractive?? Meaning if a girl who had braces isn't attractive to me, I would think that's fine. You can say all you want, but people generally don't have the hots for others in braces (except for the japanese apparently?). Getting hit on is one thing, but closing the deal is another. And for the most part, I dismiss outright the positive "i still get hit on" comments by people in relationships. Let some of the single people tell me they hit the bars with their damon's on and picked up a few people and then i'll hear ya.

Ok, i'm jumping back and forth here, and yes, this is a bit of a vent/rant but I don't care. I'm not talking about friends. Losing friends because of braces? I've never even heard of that. But when we're looking for a mate it does make a difference. In the end I wouldn't have them removed nor do I regret having them put in. I've paid for them myself and am looking forward to having them come off in due time.

I'm still trying to date too. My life doesn't stop because of braces. But I will add this; I'm not sure how much you help someone with a false sense of hope by telling them "if they don't like your braces then you're better off" blah blah. No, being in a relationship and THEN getting braces...that should be cake.

However, if you are on the singles market and you get braces just get ready for some rocky times. Unless you have some remarkable attributes, are a half way decent looking girl (It is invariably easier for a braced girl to get a guy then the other way around) or some other quality braces are going to either have you set your bar lower, or hang out for a bit.

Please explain how being hit on is any different whether you are in a relationship or not in one? My husband and I do not wear wedding rings, and as far as I know, nobody has tattoo'd "I am not single" on my face. Obviously I am not getting hit on while arm in arm with my husband, LOL.

Getting hit on is getting hit on, while I am in a bar with my friends, regardless if I am married or not. Having a mouth full of big, glittering silver braces, wires and randomly multicolored ligatures hasn't lowered my experience at all. I haven't been married forever, I've been single before and am perfectly aware of how it is, heh.

I also had no problems in the dating department before I was in a relationship and had imperfect, gappy teeth - I am the only person my teeth bothered.

I will respectfully disagree with

But I will add this; I'm not sure how much you help someone with a false sense of hope by telling them "if they don't like your braces then you're better off"

I do not want to be with, or be friends with, anyone who thinks i am less attractive simply because I chose to apply extremely temporary orthodontic appliances in order to fix valid medical and cosmetic issues with my teeth, just like I wouldn't have wanted to be with, or friends with, someone who disliked me because of my gappy teeth, and In My Opinion, I think anything that screens out people like that is a good thing.

I think they are darn well better off, and I fail to see how that remotely gives anyone a false sense of "hope".

I really do think your lack of luck in the dating arena is your attitude. Not to be disrespectful, but its a turnoff to me just reading it. And I do think its shallow to ONLY thing someone is unattractive because of braces, and if without them, you'd be all over it. And hypocritical.

#32 Post by ***melissa*** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:52 pm

"No, the reality is when I meet a girl that I like, that I have a fair shot with, but who ultimately ends up cancelling on me or turning me down my first thought goes to the braces."

You may think your problems with girls are because of your braces, but I seriously doubt a girl would meet you (and your braces), agree to go out with you, then randomly decide she doesn't like your braces and then cancel on you.

If girls are repeatedly turning you down on the other hand, yes, it could be the braces. But it's most likely your personality, attitude, and how you carry yourself. If you think of yourself as unattractive, then girls will get that vibe from you and not want to date you.

#33 Post by **SnowSara** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:32 pm

I just think kudos is in a minority. How can you find a temporary appliance such as braces unattractive? Especially when YOU HAVE BRACES. ?!?!?!?! That's the most backwards thing I've ever read.
Girls care much more about how a man acts and carries himself than they do their appearance, you could pass them the same favor. Am I right ladies?

fwiw, I looked pretty friggin' cute in my braces and I knew it

#34 Post by **kudos213** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:57 pm

SnowSara wrote:I just think kudos is in a minority. How can you find a temporary appliance such as braces unattractive? Especially when YOU HAVE BRACES. ?!?!?!?! That's the most backwards thing I've ever read.
Girls care much more about how a man acts and carries himself than they do their appearance, you could pass them the same favor. Am I right ladies?

fwiw, I looked pretty friggin' cute in my braces and I knew it

Okay, let me reply to a few of your comments here. I'll start with the one quoted above. You're implying that SINCE I have braces that I should find girls with braces attractive, or at the very least not let the fact that they have braces bother me? This is illogical. Your argument contains a fallacy. Because I am going through or have a certain condition does not imply that I will not notice it in a potential mate. I don't really think i'm so shallow as to say I WOULDN'T date a girl with braces, but it would be something I would notice.

Onto Pixel witch. Perhaps getting hit on while you're in a relationship is a bit easier. Maybe you know it won't lead anywhere so you don't mind throwing out a glance here or there? I don't know. What I will note that it is all WOMEN who are responding. I'm not saying guys with braces are out of luck, I have a few girls who I personally don't care for but who are ready to do whatever it takes to get me to take them out.

I'm not talking about a hook up people. I'm not even talking about flirting. I'm talking about when you meet that one person who you really like, who you really want to put your best foot forward. Braces take a bit away from that. Again, I still don't regret the decision. I'd get them again. However, I don't think all of you people ALREADY in relationships talking about how great your love life is with braces, or girls who get hit on in braces (lets face it, guys are less picky than girls are so they are more likely to hit on you irregardless of your mouthwear) are a great comfort to the rest of us.

I do not want to be with, or be friends with, anyone who thinks i am less attractive simply because I chose to apply extremely temporary orthodontic appliances in order to fix valid medical and cosmetic issues with my teeth, just like I wouldn't have wanted to be with, or friends with, someone who disliked me because of my gappy teeth, and In My Opinion, I think anything that screens out people like that is a good thing.

Well why don't you just keep your braces on permanently? It'll help you weed out those people you don't want in your life as you state. Why get them taken off at all? Fact is in the end when the medical condition or whatever is solved it will be purely cosmetic. You want to look better, to have your smile etc. We all do, but don't sit around talking about how you're better than that and that it's somehow shallow to think someone with braces isn't attractive.

#35 Post by **kudos213** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:00 pm

BoSox2008 wrote:Jeez people!

Kudos - I will admit:

YES I would like to admit that the reason why I have braces IS because I want my teeth to be perfect, so that I can have a nice smile, and so that I can be more attractive. The health benefits are a plus.

YES I feel that I may be less attractive with braces than I will be once they come off, however I feel that I am more attractive in braces than I was with a crooked smile!!

YES I was with my current boyfriend when I had braces put on. He was very supportive, and still is, even though I'm sure he prefers me without a mouth full of metal. However I go out with friends a lot, and definitely DO get hit on just the same if not more than I did before getting braces. I'm sure there have been guys who looked at me and said "gross that girl has braces and they're hideous" but whatever, who cares! There will always be people who are not attracted to me. I don't expect to be hit on by every male everywhere I go.

My friend decided to get braces after I got mine on. He is a very attractive guy and was single at the time. He has now been with his girlfriend for almost a year. She is very attractive and successful, and she has only known him with braces. I guess she knows they're temporary and is willing to overlook them because of his other qualities that she likes.

My point is - a lot of people get braces in order to be more attractive, and that's fine. However just because you have braces doesn't mean that you need to put your life on hold. There are people who won't be attracted to you because of your braces, and there are people who wouldn't be attracted to you even if you didn't have braces. However there are just as many people who won't mind your braces, and they like other things about you more than they don't like your braces.

They're just braces, they're temporary, and you will look like a million bucks once they're off. If what matters to you is having random shallow girls come home with you from the bar, then you might have to wait around for that. But if you're looking for a normal healthy relationship, there is no reason why that couldn't happen. Most girls who are turned off by your braces probably wouldn't date you anyway.

TITCR, all except for the last paragraph.

...maybe random shallow girls DO matter to me. So I guess i'll wait

Otherwise, good post

#36 Post by **Mellephone** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:25 pm

Wow, why is everyone so ready to jump to the worst conclusions? It's almost as if no one is allowed to have a negative thought about braces, which to me is not only unhealthy but is unrealistic. I'm sure we've all disliked our braces at some point in time for various reasons. The first month or two with them on was horrid for me. I talked with a lisp (sometimes I still do), I was in agony, the flexible wire highlighted how uneven my teeth were, my mouth was cut up and my lips practically bled. I smiled a ton as usual, and I was thrilled to have the braces (aside from a few moments of panic and venting). I still had a bounce in my step and was my usual chipper self, but I'm also sure it wasn't that attractive because of everything I just mentioned. Is it more attractive now? YES. Will it be even more attractive when they are off? I hope so, even though cosmetic decisions were not the sole reason I got braces. (I had a fused baby tooth that had to come out and some mild crowding. I picked braces over an implant and killed two birds with one stone for less money).

I am hearing wonderful points from every perspective but I think there has to be some acknowledgement on both sides that everyone has a point. Braces don't look adorable on everyone, and most people look better without them (definitely after!) than they did with them. If they were a huge fashion statement people might get them and keep them to look cool and/or sexier. Attitude does make a difference, regardless of braces. Positive people are more enjoyable to be around and more approachable. However, attitude alone is not the sole factor in determining attraction. We all have types of preference, from looks to personality, to common interests, to absolute non-negotiables. It doesn't mean we won't date someone outside our type but there are things we look for and/or prefer. Someone who will completely dismiss someone solely because of braces is shallow and you probably are better off without them. Is it totally shallow to be in a room of cute girls and prefer the girls without braces? We are attracted to what we are attracted to. I do think being relaxed about my braces can make potential dates more relaxed and also set them more at ease in general. Braces can be foreign to other people and some people might be concerned about kissing etc because of bad press on braces. Heck, I used to worry they'd get caught when kissing, But being relaxed and positive is not a cure all. It's not going to solve everything and it doesn't mean everyone who turns you down is a creep and shallow if braces were even remotely part of the decision.

Would you really be knocking me down if I said... I'm 5 '6" and I prefer a guy who is taller than me, has some common interests and absolutely does not smoke. I am faced with three guys, all seem nice and are of average looks, but one is several inches shorter than me and maybe he's into sports and I'm not. Another guy is taller than me but smokes. And the last guy is taller than me and shares some of my hobbies. Which guy am I likely to flirt with? Yes, I suppose I should get to know the first guy, and maybe I'd be surprised and he'd be a wonderful match for me... but realistically if all three guys are smiling at me at a party I'm most likely to talk to the last because we are driven by human nature to seek that which appeals to us most. We are forced every day to make split second decisions based on stereotypes, preferences and sometimes even shallow motives. Studies have even proven we subconsciously take attraction into tons of decisions, from who we hire, to who we are friends with, to who we flirt with, to what we buy. It does not mean we are all shallow jerks who no one should be friends with. It just means we all try the best we can not to let it be the only factor. But give a guy a break for being honest. I really hate to see anyone jumped on when we're supposed to be supporting each other and making everyone feel welcome and valid.

#37 Post by **kudos213** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:20 pm

Mellephone wrote:Wow, why is everyone so ready to jump to the worst conclusions? It's almost as if no one is allowed to have a negative thought about braces, which to me is not only unhealthy but is unrealistic. I'm sure we've all disliked our braces at some point in time for various reasons. The first month or two with them on was horrid for me. I talked with a lisp (sometimes I still do), I was in agony, the flexible wire highlighted how uneven my teeth were, my mouth was cut up and my lips practically bled. I smiled a ton as usual, and I was thrilled to have the braces (aside from a few moments of panic and venting). I still had a bounce in my step and was my usual chipper self, but I'm also sure it wasn't that attractive because of everything I just mentioned. Is it more attractive now? YES. Will it be even more attractive when they are off? I hope so, even though cosmetic decisions were not the sole reason I got braces. (I had a fused baby tooth that had to come out and some mild crowding. I picked braces over an implant and killed two birds with one stone for less money).

I am hearing wonderful points from every perspective but I think there has to be some acknowledgement on both sides that everyone has a point. Braces don't look adorable on everyone, and most people look better without them (definitely after!) than they did with them. If they were a huge fashion statement people might get them and keep them to look cool and/or sexier. Attitude does make a difference, regardless of braces. Positive people are more enjoyable to be around and more approachable. However, attitude alone is not the sole factor in determining attraction. We all have types of preference, from looks to personality, to common interests, to absolute non-negotiables. It doesn't mean we won't date someone outside our type but there are things we look for and/or prefer. Someone who will completely dismiss someone solely because of braces is shallow and you probably are better off without them. Is it totally shallow to be in a room of cute girls and prefer the girls without braces? We are attracted to what we are attracted to. I do think being relaxed about my braces can make potential dates more relaxed and also set them more at ease in general. Braces can be foreign to other people and some people might be concerned about kissing etc because of bad press on braces. Heck, I used to worry they'd get caught when kissing, But being relaxed and positive is not a cure all. It's not going to solve everything and it doesn't mean everyone who turns you down is a creep and shallow if braces were even remotely part of the decision.

Would you really be knocking me down if I said... I'm 5 '6" and I prefer a guy who is taller than me, has some common interests and absolutely does not smoke. I am faced with three guys, all seem nice and are of average looks, but one is several inches shorter than me and maybe he's into sports and I'm not. Another guy is taller than me but smokes. And the last guy is taller than me and shares some of my hobbies. Which guy am I likely to flirt with? Yes, I suppose I should get to know the first guy, and maybe I'd be surprised and he'd be a wonderful match for me... but realistically if all three guys are smiling at me at a party I'm most likely to talk to the last because we are driven by human nature to seek that which appeals to us most. We are forced every day to make split second decisions based on stereotypes, preferences and sometimes even shallow motives. Studies have even proven we subconsciously take attraction into tons of decisions, from who we hire, to who we are friends with, to who we flirt with, to what we buy. It does not mean we are all shallow jerks who no one should be friends with. It just means we all try the best we can not to let it be the only factor. But give a guy a break for being honest. I really hate to see anyone jumped on when we're supposed to be supporting each other and making everyone feel welcome and valid.

Wow, great post! TITCR as well. Listen, i'm not really a shallow sleezball. I'm college educated and a decent guy, believe it or not. During the past two years that i've been braced i've really never felt any anomosity towards the traintracks. However, recently I guess I just want out. I'm not going to try to get out of them. I am fully aware of what they are doing for me and appreciate the pain in my mouth after I get my braces tightened. I've never regretted getting braced and never will, so if anyone is considering doing it, do it.

However, all that said I don't buy the fact that people will like us regardless of being braced. If you think people will like you for just who you are then why bother with different clothes? Why fix your hair? These things don't serve a health purpose, but we strive to look better. Let's not be naive here folks. Mellephone's third paragraph is right on in this regard; schopenhour called it the 'will to life.' To say that you aren't attracted to someone attractive is naive. I'm not saying that's ALL that you care about, but looks are important.

Ever read flowers for algernon? If so you'll understand where i'm coming from here. There are other threads on this board where someone shows their jagged teeth, newly braced, and everyone chimes in with "you look so great" or "wow, what an improvement" and finally "lovely smile!"

No, it does not look good.

That's not to say that it won't look good, but it doesn't. I'd rather be told the truth than placated and lied to. What a false sense of hope/security. No, I don't like my smile with braces (although it's much better than what I started with) and no I don't like girls with braces. There are the usual caveats, but to me it's not attractive. Would I date a girl with braces, of course! I'd consider everything as well, her personality, intelligence, body, and everything else.

Lastly, I hear most of you women who say you don't care about the braces. I get that you're already in a relationship, or that you get hit on while sportin the grillz. Good for you. But I really don't think you should talk until you actually try to pick up a guy.

#38 Post by **Mellephone** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:21 pm

I didn't read his post that way. He said he saw a girl he thought was cute, but then he noticed her braces and it changed his perception. He did not say he suddenly found her repulsive or was flirting with her and stopped. He said he saw someone and had one impression, got a further look and changed his impression. Could he have said it better? Yes. But, not wanting to assume the worst I thought about the times that I have seen an attractive person and then they smiled and they had really yellow teeth, or crooked or even missing teeth and while it doesn't make them ugly, it does alter the perception sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst. I think it's actually quite mature for a situation such as that to lead one to question, I wonder if that is how mine are perceived? And wow, it really causes one to realize how judgmental I might have been in the past, now that they are exposed to walking in those shoes.

I have a stunning co-worker. She is tall, slender and beautiful but I was taken aback the first time she smiled and I saw she has extra teeth and crooked teeth. It caught me off guard, but I react in any shape or form. Yes, she is not as pretty when she smiles because of the teeth, but she is a wonderful person and she is still pretty. It would be a shame if she stopped smiling because she was embarrassed of her teeth. It would take away from her delightful and cheerful personality. Yes, she could be more pretty if she went through the braces experience and I recognized that (internally). I for one, would be more pretty if my teeth were less yellow, and I realize that other people might have the same thoughts. I also realize I value dental hygiene and I find someone more attractive if they smile and I see straight teeth, or whiter teeth. Just as I find someone less attractive when they light up a smoke, or more attractive when I see them do something kind.

For reference, he said:
"For me the shock came a few months into the braces when I saw a girl that I thought was cute until I saw she had braces. Then I realized that I myself also have braces now. While the other poster learns his life lesson that others are not always thinking about me, the other life lesson is that not everyone sees you in the best light possible. "

If I missed a comment and he really was flirting with a girl and dropped her cold upon seeing her smile and seeing her braces, that is not nice. But that was not what I read.

#39 Post by **kudos213** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:31 pm

Obviously that's not what I meant. I don't drop people cold because I see something I don't like. But halfway into the conversation I realize "hey, i'm not attracted to this chick." Would I be moreso if she didn't have braces? Honestly, I don't know. But maybe? The reason I got braces was because I like girls with a good smile. Dental hygiene is definitely important to me and I felt I would be the biggest hypocrite to demand a decent smile but not try and have one of my own.

Mellephone, I like your posts. Very open minded and honest. Keep'em coming!

#40 Post by **kudos213** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:59 pm

Meryaten wrote:I give up.

As I said before, handsome is as handsome does, and good looks are extremely ephemeral. I am only too happy not to mix in the sort of circles where people tend to be so shallow. And those who do count themselves a part of such social circles should expect negative consequences when they themselves fall short of the standards espoused in their group.

This is the sort of passive-aggressive, ad hominem attack i'm talking about. Let me be clear, i'm not saying looks are ALL that's important. But to blatantly disregard it's importance, to call people who actually consider someone's beauty as important as "shallow" is not only naive and shortsided but stupid. Mellephone made a good comment in the third paragraph of her post on the previous page. Statistics have shown that better looking people fair better in a number of different situations. The ONLY point I want to draw from this conclusion is that looks CAN BE IMPORTANT.

Secondly, you bet your butt I expect negative consequences if I fall short of my own standards or the standards of the groups I associate with. If you have missing teeth, no education, no job, no social skills, and no clue as to whats going on in the world, don't be out there trying to date big law firm lawyers. I hold myself to the same standards that I want out of a mate, and for that matter my friends, collegues, associates etc...

What i'm annoyed at is the fact that you, Meryaten, think you're somehow above this. That you don't consider looks in your evaluation of people (or perhaps you want to claim that you don't evaluate people at all?). The simple fact, however, is that it's not your choice. You don't choose who you are attracted to or will fall in love with. Your biological makeup does, and in that make up is the need to mate with someone who will yield healthy offspring. This is why we look for someone with a cute nose, type-A personality, intelligence, a porsche, good teeth etc (or whatever non-ephemeral BS you claim you look for). These traits tell us, subconsciously, that the chances of reproducing with these individuals will yield healthy, competent offspring.

Maybe this is too pedantic and dispassionate view of relationships, but I think it's pompous and arrogant of you to outright disregard the notion that someone might be less attracted to someone who is, well, less attractive to that person.

#41 Post by **kudos213** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:13 pm

The fallacy is actually in your own response. The claim is not that perfect looks, or a porsche (read: financial stability) or anything else is a guarantee for healthy offspring - these things provide probability of the type of offspring you can expect.

Your claim about a Porsche being fically irresponsible has nothing to do with the topic of my post, and like some of your other comments are irrelevant.

I'd like to think that humankind has evolved beyond this mere biological imperative argument, but alas I know (s)he has not, as evidenced by this oft-repeated theme. The sad part is that it's not just genetic, as much as some people might enjoy that ready scapegoat to assuage any slight guilt they might feel. It's an attitude.

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. Innate biological attributes are just an attitude? Is that so? So i'm sure you can change them, as you can your attitudes? So if I found a homeless, toothless bum on the street who was vile in every way possible (I'll even give him my porsche) can you change your attitude to love this man? Can you change your attitude to love another woman? If it's just an attitude, you should be able to change it. Nevermind that you don't want to, once you change your attitude you will love whomever you decide to love. Can you see the naivety? I'm not trying to resort to my own ad hominem attacks by calling you names, but I feel it is warranted in this case.

As to your argument about better looking people doing better in certain situations, that is undeniable. But it is no more right that it is right that people get murdered every day. Just because something happens doesn't mean it is good.

I think this comment is at the heart of the matter. I'm not claiming that this is RIGHT, but that this is the way it is. Furthermore, this is not hard and fast, but rather STATISTICAL in nature. You may well be the exception who loves unattractive, unintelligent men (exageration to draw a point). However, the majority of people are attracted to others who exhibit the traits I mentioned in my previous post.

Like I said, handsome is as handsome does.

Anyway, I'll say no more to you on this topic, no matter what petty insults you might choose to toss my way. It's not worth further wasted effort on my part.

Hmm, I'll have to rewatch Forrest Gump, I guess. Since you won't reply, i'll have to draw a conclusion regarding this line. Handsome is as handsome does. This means that if you choose to believe you are handsome, you are handsome?

I'll agree to a previous poster who said that your attitude could be a determining factor. Of course this is on par. I've never said looks were a sole factor in finding a mate, but rather that they are a key and important one. This is the point I want to reiterate. Secondly, I want to disagree to a point with the last quote. My personal belief is that you are content. You are in a relationship with someone you love and feel you can justify your comment with your own experience. But if you actually think about the dating pool I you'll tend to realize that just because you believe yourself to be handsome or beautiful or whatever doesn't mean you will attract whomever you want. That's just as shortsided as thinking you can compete in professional sports by thinking confidently rather than putting in the hard work. Obviously the former is necessary, but it is not sufficient.

My own thoughts are that i'm always trying to improve...my looks, my intelligence, athleticism etc. In every facet of my life my goal is to improve, in order to be able to expect the same out of a mate, associates friends etc. Maybe when i'm in a happy place in my life, in a great relationship, with a great job i'll become complacent and look down upon those who value those things which I am striving to improve. I doubt that, however. I realize we are all dealt the cards we have and need to make the best of them. But I don't sidestep my own shortcomings. I don't try and pretend that things that I value, such as a person's looks (or their intelligence or humor etc) aren't important or even worse that it is superficial to value such things.

I think the misinterpretation, if there is one, is to think that this is ALL I value. This is not the point I am making. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, but I will make my point heard and call anyone on whatever they try and pass off as open minded advice.

Being happy because you're in braces is great, but you cannot deny that there are downtimes. There should be, we don't look great all the time especially in braces. That's okay though. But it should be acknowledged on these boards. Pain and discomfort are good things, they prompted many of us to get braced in the first place and it shouldn't be dismissed without thought and reflection. That's my $0.02

#42 Post by **Buffy** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:35 am

Just a few quick thoughts:

I admit happily that I sometimes feel less attractive with my braces on, even though I think they're quite invisible. This feeling has lessened for me since I got them on, but when I first did, I didn't even want to open my mouth.

I will say that sometimes I wake up, look in the mirror, and just think - yuck!

I haven't seen anyone look at me in a bar or across the canteen, and then look repulsed when I smiled back, so I can only assume it's not that bad to see me flash a tin-grin.

I think one prevailing thought has kept me smiling most of the time, and I'm going to share it here:

Before I got my braces on, I would often spend a lot of time looking in the mirror, getting upset about my horrible teeth. They made me not want to smile in public, they made me hate photos of myself, and they made me very nervous. Now, I've got braces, and I can't honestly say that I think I look super-hot or anything, but I definitely don't look worse, and I know for sure that I will look better. So to trade in my horrible and upsetting smile for a tin-grin, for an eventually gorgeous smile, I'm pretty happy. And I'm going to do my best to keep smiling all through treatment.

And if I'm single for a while because of it, then so be it. I have to improve me, it's important!

#43 Post by **martinboyce** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:55 am

WOWSERS! What a read people!

I thought i was the only one that gets caught in the semi polite uber debates.

I can see both sides of the arguement, i totally agree with Buffy.

Everyone feels a little sensitive about their braces, i do all the time. I myself have now seen it from both sides of the fence, when i first met an ex girlfriend of mine she had tops and bottom metal braces (aged 17) and despite it we got together, it didnt slow me down in the slightest, one day about a year into the relationship she turns up at my door, and the braces had gone. I didnt think she was instantly prettier, as she was already pretty.

Moving on a few years and now i have braces. and my current girlfriend isnt repulsed by me. I feel good that i didnt judge my ex girlfriend by her braces and dont expect people to judge me by mine.

A red hot girl with braces, im affriad is still red hot and an ugly person with braces is well, quite frankly unlucky

It can be argued that attractiveness is in fact relative, hence the sayin beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Which in many many cases is the truth as each individual prefers different characteristics in a partner, and for many people attractiveness isnt a factor as they generally end up with people they are not attracted to physically. So you can argue that the only other personal factor is the "personality"

There will always be certain stereotypical characteristics that will in fact be always considered attractive, big boobs, nice teeth, straight hair, blue eyes, etc etc but these are stereotypes, despite this we all try to achieve this.

In the end, you can easily be repulsed by an attractive persons personality / intelligence and be attracted to peoples personalities who are less attractive, it can happen both ways for both reasons, there is no right or wrong.

man ive already typed loads, so easy to get drawn in...

#44 Post by **loulou123** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:38 am

I also "sort" of understand both sides of the argument, but think it was worded badly intially.

All i know is that before having my braces my teeth were so bad i NEVER smiled in photos and would hold my hand over mouth to laugh etc. But now i have loads of pictures of me open mouthed smiling and im much more confident, as the braces at least say im doing something about my teeth.

Also not wanting in anyway to cause another argument, but think age might have something to play in peoples opinions on this matter, as im 28 and think as you get older you begin to care less about what others think about you, whereas when your younger it seems much more important to fit in and be the same as your peers.

#45 Post by **SnowSara** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:36 am

My whole point is that they are temporary. It may be four or five years, but it's still something that is going to go away and no longer be a part of someone's life or appearance. As such, I do not think braces are a big deal AT ALL, for a man or woman. I would expect someone with braces, if anyone, to be sympathetic to that.

I don't want other women to read this man's comments and think that all men care that much about a woman with braces, because I do think that that kind of thinking is in the minority and that most men either do not care, or perhaps even find them cute.

No one is saying you aren't allowed to be attracted to different types of people or find certain qualities unattractive, but I think you are giving braces WAAAYY too much credit. I really don't think they even need to come into the equation. Braces aren't a trait someone is born with and won't ever change, obviously. And as discussed, they are a means to an end, and end with a better, healthier smile!

This whole discussion is dumb, we shouldn't be arguing about whether or not braces are attractive/unattractive, because it's more about feeling good about yourself no matter what. Braces will come and go and before you know it will be ancient history.

I just want everyone in this forum to feel good about themselves and to not ever feel like braces can stop them from doing anything. Only you can do that.