Approach difference US/europe?

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#31 Post by **butterfly** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:39 am

I don't understand why some people seem to be offended because I made generalizations. In my first post I clearly said I wanted to discuss trends and different approaches in different countries. It should be self evident that such a discussion is basically a generalization and nothing else. That's what sociological questions are all about!

So I apologize to anyone who felt offended. That wasn't the intention at all.

#32 Post by **weird_wired** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:38 pm

I certainly wasn't offended. I think it's a very valid topic of discussion.

#33 Post by **Megera_S** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:32 pm

I wasn't either... But I was just trying to point out that if you make sweeping generalizations in a large group of people there is usually always going to be someone that will step up and disagree with you and be "the exception to the rule".

#34 Post by **Svensk Tiger** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:40 pm

I don't think anyone was offended, more confused as to what you were getting at with your posts. Can I ask again why you have such a strange view of the NHS? Not at all offended just curious as your view is clearly the minority opinion.

#35 Post by **happyhelen** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:35 am

[color=darkblue]

just thought i would add my bit to the debate!!
firstly would like to say Thank you to everyone as i love thi site and it gets me through my brace days!!

secondly i would also like to say i am biased as i love the NHS. i am so proud to have it and pay my taxes to contribute to it. Yes its flawed, its got its issues but its there. And i am proud that anyone can get treatment. It may be controversial but at least its there.

I got my braces out of my bank account at the cost of 5k. Purely they are for me, i wanted straight teeth. My brother got his for free even though his were 'cosmetic' too.
The moral of my little addition to this rant?

Each patient is individual. Every set of brace and there multitude of reasons for getting them (NHS/ private) is individual.

I am much more concerned with such issues as this; I went away this weekend and my brace was detected on the hand metal detector the man used. Hhahah i laughed my metal head off all the flight home[/color]

#36 Post by **halo** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:25 am

Lucyloop wrote:We also have a huge problem with illegal immigrants over here too, who often only come over here to get free health care, housing and welfare benefit, whilst often running crime gangs in their free time. A lot of these illegals are young men who are not fleeing from persecution, but are cashing in on a bad and easy to abuse system. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but statistically that is fairly accurate. I've not got any problems with GENUINE asylum seekers, but the "illegals" enter the UK on the backs of lorries, which says it all. They also travel through at least 3 or 4 other "safe" countries before getting here, but nowhere else throws money at them like the UK. Anyone else over here will probably understand what I mean when I say - look down the local hand car-wash!

Are you an avid Daily Mail reader, Lucy?

Illegal immigrants rarely get free health care, housing and welfare benefit to my knowledge. You need an NHS card for the first thing, and a NI number for the other two, unless you personally know anyone? As for easy to abuse system, I watched my legally-here-and-working girlfriend attempt to get her NHS card sorted out when she was admitted to St Mary's A&E a few months ago. It may not be closed to abuse, but people don't just walk in and get healthy.

Statistically fairly accurate? I call b******t - sorry Lucy - there's certainly illegal immigrants driving our taxis, cleaning our offices and hotels, and working on the street, but I find the assertion that we're throwing money at them basically untrue. My local car wash is populated by Kosovans - very nice chaps and would probably be rightly distressed if I made unfounded remarks about them.

The NHS is up and down in the UK - sometimes you get great healthcare, sometimes you don't. Unlike the US, of course, where a broken leg could ruin you without insurance, you are guaranteed to be fixed (somehow) here, and I'm grateful for that. Modern healthcare is expensive, whoever pays for it.

People here are not as obsessive with dental engineering as our American cousins - perhaps us Brits should be a little more concerned and perhaps Americans should be a little less, but that is life.

Apologies for harshness of rant, nothing personal, but I can't read this stuff and *not* say something

#37 Post by **weird_wired** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:39 am

Illegal immigrants rarely get free health care, housing and welfare benefit to my knowledge. You need an NHS card for the first thing

As I understand it - unless the situation has changed - no one in the UK is denied emergency medical treatment, regardless of their status. And while they may be asked to pay, if they can't pay, they're not imprisoned or detained or anything.

Unlike where I live (Dubai) where people are not allowed to leave with unpaid medical bills.

While I think it is wrong for people to "milk" and abuse the system, or deliberately come in as health migrants (which does happen, though probably more rarely than certain papers would like to have us believe), on humanitarian and moral grounds I still think it is appropriate to treat them.

#38 Post by **butterfly** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:36 am

Abuse also happens with private health care. Because of this problem everyone has to present a picture ID along with their magnetic insurance card when going to the doctor. Identity theft is a problem. Several people use to go to the doctor with only one person covered...

#39 Post by **butterfly** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:38 am

KK wrote: maybe you could start this thread again with a better worded post so that this confusion can come to an end.

Several guys here seem to have gotten my point. I don't know how to explain in better. Sorry. Note that my language skills are somewhat limited.

#40 Post by **fyrelight** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:32 am

You guys have got my mind rolling. One question for you guys in countries with standardized state health care plans....

In the USA, we say that we have better medical care in part because of the "competition" factor. That is, a doctor graduates from med school. In order to get more patients (and thus enough money to pay off loans), he has to be a good doctor. In other countries, most of us here figure that a doctor would get out of med school, and why should he care how good he is if he's going to get the same pay from the government regardless of how good he is? It's like the communist form of government-- if everyone gets the same no matter how hard you work, why work hard?

So my question is, what would be the response to this argument in those countries? And what opinion do the doctors/dentists in your countries have regarding this? (Any of you guys married to a doc, etc?)

Thanks! (I'm a medical assistant, and in classes, we have discussed how insurance works here and the problems with access to it, but that standardizing our health care here in the USA would kill our medical care-- we just can't implement it, no matter how good it might seem --the implementation process would be too huge.)

Pam

#41 Post by **butterfly** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:51 am

Something like this. Many European countries are socialist in their approach to health care, edudation and other things.

A doctor gets paid by the number of patients he treats. There is no competition. Usually you to to the one near you...

Same goes for teachers. They are state employees, sometimes they cannot be fired for a lifetime, even if the are bad teachers.

There is only one health care plan (besides extra "gold" insurances that give you a private room in the hospital and so on).

One of the funniest things is the way to get a drivers licence. I KNOW that this is the case in Germany, Austria and Italy: Depending on where you live you MUST go to a specific driving school and take your lessons there. There is no competition unless you move.

Same goes with postal service. Some countires still do not allow private companies to deliver mail. Same goes for phone companies. YOu have only one, the state owned one. No choice. No competition.

Retirement pay is also state based. There is a system that counts your years of employment and that's what you get. Unless you are a businessman - then you have to care for yourself.

Most of the public transportation is state based. Trains run empty because of high prices but nothing happens. They get paid anyway. Tax payers pay...

Many things change though. Everything is becoming more "American style" because the state eventually goes bankrupt. Of course this is horrible for the people because they are not used to the concept of "do it yourself, care for yourself because noone else will care". Just imagine suddenly there is only half for your retirement pay left and you didn`t expect it. That's what happens.

It is very different! I think moving to the US must be a shock being European.

#42 Post by **Megera_S** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:31 pm

Any time I've talked with this sort of thing with American friends of mine they immediately scream "Communism!" its funny that you would mention it.
As far as I know, Doctors get paid by how many patients they treat. So if the doctor is bad, they're not going to get many patients coming in to see them (granted, in some smaller places you have no choice...). That's also why if you go to the doctor for say a sore foot and a script refill, they'll treat your foot but make you schedule another appointment to get your prescription filled.

I said this before but I honestly can't imagine having to worry about paying for health insurance or worrying about getting sick while not having insurance.

#43 Post by **Gel** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:58 pm

I have definatley been in the bracket of being sick and not having insurance. I think here in the US the worst stats for no insurance is single mothers and newly weds. My sweetie and me just barely got our insurance this past July. It was really hard before that. Luckily at the school we go to we have a wellness center where everything is low cost because we are students. Last winter I was so sick I finally went to the wellness center, but she gave me some medicine that gave me the worst rash. I think i will try to stay away from there for awhile.

I think in Europe you guys have interesting systems to everything. It's just different than in the US. We are all just used to what goes on in our own countries that sometimes other things seem really wierd.

Butterfly, you are definatly right about it being shocking. While I was in Russia, half the time it seemed like I was on another planet. I believe the term for it is culture shock. But you get used to stuff after awhile and then life goes on.

#44 Post by **butterfly** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:55 am

Debug mode? This is weird. I just got two EMPTY notification emails for this thread.

#45 Post by **happyhelen** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:18 am

hello all,

i have been reading this thread and thinking about whats on it a lot since it was posted.

i need to say im a a real pro NHS girl. I work in the NHS - im a locum junior doctor in the north east and travel between 12 hospitals. My mum and brother are nurses. so this is a real nhs rant from me.....

Doctors are graded like all over the world. UK medicine courses / European medicine courses are the hardest courses to get on in the world apart from those in australasia. EVERY YEAR DOCTORS ARE REEXAMINED BY THE GMC. we strive every day to improve - i have worked in the USA and in europe and i truly believe taht just becasue people dont neccessarily 'choose' there doctors doesnt mean they slack off or work any less than USA colleges who live off private lists. mortality rates in the UK are one of the lowest in the world for a reason, the NHS as a service is working.

I would never work as a doctor again in the USA, i have a nhs job and thats the way it will stay. I dont know the background of most of my patients - they could be billionaires or paupers, i dont know and i simply dont care. Im not saying USA doctors are any different, please dont think i am. But i pay my taxes to help keep this country healthy and for that im proud.

yes we have a high percentage of foreign staff and a problems in the nhs but we treat every one as best is possible and as a nhs worker we bear the brunt of the goverments decisions - its difficult eplaining why waiting lists are long and so on.

im paying for private dental work at the moment - i could not get want i want on the NHS and as i can afford to pay i think thats fair enough.

so theres my rant. over and done with. after a 13 hour shift i am going to eat as much chocolate as my stomach will take. i will deal with tthe fillings in 3 months when they surface!!
xx

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Approach difference US/europe?

my two pence worth