Post extractions - Dished in mouth!

[jenim]

Hello, just found this forum and life has been quite traumatic since I found out the extractions of premolars (bicuspids) the Orthodontist ordered weren't the best for my child! We're desperate and really need some suggestions!

My daughter is 12 now and at our first consult, her Orthodontist ordered her 4 premolars extracted (teeth 05 & 12 on the top, and 21 & 28 on the bottom) almost 2 years ago and we had all extractions done. In hindsight, I wish I had seen all that I'm researching now. Since last spring (for almost a year now) my daughter's face has changed so dramatically for the worse and I didn't know why, except that I was very concerned and kept mentioning to her Ortho that her lower part of the face looks pushed back. I was also very concerned that my daughter could have self esteem issues because she was aware of what I'm asking her ortho. Her front teeth, both upper and lower have been pushed back with braces, powerchain etc, that her lower face has become very narrow. I see pretty much the same complaints as others who went through the extractions and are having issues with how they look. My daughter is already complaining about headaches often in the last 6 months and has a very pronounced lisp in the last few months (I'm suspecting because her lower teeth are pushed back to close space from the extractions).

Her chin is narrow and protruding, has a non-existent upper lip and droopy cheeks, and seems like a disproportionately big nose because of the small mouth. She's almost a teen and is very concerned about how she looks (an old lady look). Her orthodontist is either dismissive or getting defensive when I ask him about the pushed back lower teeth and is only keen in closing the tiny space that's still left on the upper teeth where her 2 premolars were extracted. Their focus seems to be just teeth alignment as opposed to fixing the sunken-in mouth. The space created by the 2 extractions on the bottom is already closed. I'm unable to post pictures as I'm new to the forum and don't have those privileges.

I'd been reading about "Functional Orthodontist" or specialist who will reverse the removal of premolars and bring her face back to how it should look. I've been searching site after site for a functional orthodontist in New Jersey and am not finding anything where they say they do such reversals. Could anyone please, please help with suggestions on how to find a good specialist/Orthodontist who will fix this for my daughter in NJ? I'd like to start on this process ASAP and have the whole extraction reversed - by recreating the space for her extracted teeth and have new implants, so she'll gain her looks back and not have any future issues such as TMJ or Sleep Apnea.

Also I'd like to know by any chance, are we in a better state that we discovered this issue already (that is, 2 years into the treatment) instead of finding this after she turned into an adult? The reason I ask this is, she doesn't have her wisdom teeth yet and may be since she's only 12, her jaw is not fully developed - does this mean that it will be easier to reverse the extractions now as opposed to doing this as an adult?

Please, anyone who has had the extractions reversed with implants, please respond. I've been consumed by guilt as a parent that I trusted the Ortho and her dentist to have her extractions done! Is there any other solution to this look other than a reversal? We have our next appointment very soon and I don't know how to make the Ortho see what I'm seeing without him getting all egoistic & defensive (also her treatment was paid for in full in the last 2 years, so he probably doesn't care - he says she must be lisping all the time when I clealy know she's been doing that in the recent months since they started pushing her lower teeth back with power chains!) I'm having a few sleepless nights, please offer suggestions, anyone.

[nightmare56]

i am in supposed to get extractions in the next two weeks and have decided against it largely due to what ive read on this forum.

your daughter is only 12 so it should be possible to use a palate expander to widen her upper jaw to make room for her teeth. i'm not sure why your ortho did not recommend an expander instead of jumping to extractions. for me, im 22 and my jaws are done growing so i was told I can't use an expander.

ive heard of a doctor in california that does reversals of extractions, it's a long long way from NJ though.
https://www.facefocused.com/

hopefully someone can help you out. hang in there.

[JillD]

http://www.archwired.com/phpbb2/viewtop ... 13&t=46185

[kids041]

http://www.archwired.com/phpbb2/viewtop ... 13&t=46185

I thought that this story sounded like I had read it before. But it seems like the link is just responses to posts that are no longer there? How is that possible? Can you delete your own past posts? IDK....

[chichi]

I thought that this story sounded like I had read it before. But it seems like the link is just responses to posts that are no longer there? How is that possible? Can you delete your own past posts? IDK....

Exactly what I was going to say... the original poster's posts are gone and that's not something we can do ourselves, sooo...

We're seeing a lot of these anti-extraction and pro-"functional" orthodontist posts lately from new users, so I'm having a hard time thinking they're not all somehow related...

With that, I'm sorry for what you and your daughter are going through, jenim. Sometimes extractions are the best choice, even for children. There are plenty of successful extraction cases in people who had teeth removed as pre-teens/teens. If you really believe there is an issue (and it seems you do), I would stop searching specifically for a "functional" orthodontist and just start looking into other orthos in your area. Ask around - I'm sure your daughter has friends in braces. Go in for some more consultations and see if there is another ortho who can take over her treatment.

[hukillmommy]

I remember that thread specifically because the original poster commented on what I had posted. She said she felt judged by everyone and was going to delete her profile. All that was left was our responses to the OP!

[Featheryy1221]

I remember that thread specifically because the original poster commented on what I had posted. She said she felt judged by everyone and was going to delete her profile. All that was left was our responses to the OP!

Yes. I remember this post as well. The story was exactly the same.

[fosterp]

Considering this forum is pretty much the only forum on the internet that is exclusively about braces - the idea of "alternative" orthodontics spamming this board with advertisements disguised as patient horror stories is pretty lucrative.

It's free, its pretty much guaranteed that anyone doing any sort of substantial internet research will stumble on this forum, and the fact that no specific dr is "endorsed" makes it convincing as a legitimate story.

The fact is though that these stories benefit the alternative orthodontics industry quite readily. I wouldn't be so skeptical if these stories didn't follow the same typical fact pattern that are reposted here and also seen on the web sites of these functional orthodontists. The entire alternative medicine industry plays on consumer fears, especially when there are a few legit stories buried amongst.

[jenim]

Hello again,

Thanks Jill for posting the link of the other mom who has had her concerns. I had a chance to read it, but not the original post as they seem to have been deleted. I really wish someone would be able to revive her deleted posts as I want to see what her concerns were.

I can see some of you are already suspecting if I'm the same person - I am NOT and I don't have any agenda either besides making my daughter look the way she should. I'm very new to this board and accidentally found it yesterday when I was browsing videos of a girl on YouTube who's posting her experience of reversing her extractions.

I'm just starting out looking for help in a public forum like this, and I don't know what happened in the other mom's case, but I really need it, as I'm trying to figure out what my options are, short of taking my daughter to various orthodontists within NJ. So please cast your doubts aside and genuinely help me with suggestions, and be assured that I'm not the same person whom you may have responded to in the past. Nor am I against traditional orthodontic treatment and I don't even know who or what Functional Orthodontists are. I was only asking about those from what I'm reading from websites such as this and in no way advertising for one method of treatment over the other. Ultimately I want my daughter to be free of any issues that may have arose from bad treatment.

But the things I've mentioned about my daughter's look is real, and I'm vowing to do get it corrected. It doesn't really matter to me whether it is traditional or functional or whatever-you-name-it-specialist that gets it fixed for her. I look at her everyday from the kitchen as I'm doing my kitchen work and as she's doing her homework, her profile and her very changed smile makes me cry from within as I know something is wrong. It is only a couple of days ago, I even realized that the problem "could be" extractions after watching the synopsis of "60 minute" youtube program from Australia on this issue, there was a picture of a teenage boy they were showing and his profile and upper lip, everything looks like my child's! (to be honest, I didn't quite get what one doctor was speaking because of his accent). Until then I was only telling the Ortho the bottom teeth look pushed in.

I see FosterP is taking about an alternative orthodontics industry - what is that and where can I find it within NJ? I'm not sure when I'm allowed to post my daughter's pic, but I want to, as I want you experts to see my fears and see if my concerns are genuine. She's my only child and the first one in our family to get braces, so you can see I was clueless when starting this process 2 years ago and the only concern I asked the ortho at that time was if she will be able to chew like other adults, since she will be losing 4 big teeth.

In any case, if any of you are in doubt, the administrator of this forum may be able to tell with tools that they have I am not the same person as the one in the other thread.

[chichi]

I really wish someone would be able to revive her deleted posts as I want to see what her concerns were.

Her story is literally EXACTLY the same as yours... teenage daughter, extractions at 12 or 13, mother doesn't like the way the kid's face looks anymore, mother kept pushing "functional" orthodontics, mother is stressed and depressed to the point that I think she needed therapy more than the kid needed the braces.

I see FosterP is taking about an alternative orthodontics industry - what is that and where can I find it within NJ?

My personal opinion is that this alternative orthodontics industry is a marketing ploy. We've seen so many advertisements for "functional" orthodontics, and, honestly, it's all stuff a good orthodontist should know and do. So, I stand by my original post. Forget the buzzwords and visit a few other orthos. Bring your daughter for some consultations (they're generally free) and you'll find out whether your concerns are legitimate and what it would take to reverse the extractions. It'll be easier to get it over with now because it sounds like your daughter is still in braces, so they could just change the course of her treatment and she's young so the fact that she's not finished growing can work to her advantage.

[jenim]

We are still not done with my daughter's original treatment. As per the Ortho she has 2 more months with braces, powerchains and elastics as she still has some small spaces (created by extractions) to close on both sides of her upper teeth, but on the bottom they are all closed. Also her wisdom teeth are not out yet, we only see those in her x-ray. Our next appt is in a week and I've requested to talk to him in private, not sitting in the assembly line like environment. I'm praying that I don't have to run around like I'm doing now, and hoping he won't dismiss my concerns as "that's just the way she's growing", but if he does I really need options to look at, and that's why I'm in a forum detailing these issues.

Chichi, I have already taken her to 2 orthos for 2nd opinion and showed them pictures and x-ray copies from her initial visit to now. I made a big mistake by not hiding/covering the orthodontist name from these copies as I now suspect what they told me might be influenced. The 1st one told me that she would have ordered the 4 teeth extractions and she would have followed the exact same treatment as the current Ortho. The way she was saying it, it made me wonder if she was my current Ortho's student as he also teaches somewhere I heard.
The 2nd ortho said it's too late in the treatment for my daughter to start seeing a different ortho. He said he cannot tell whether he would have ordered 4 teeth extractions without looking at the teeth mold prior to treatment, but just going by the pictures he suggested these things:

1. Her teeth were crowded at start
2. Book time and talk to my ortho privately about my concerns and see what he will do differently, as opposed to talking to him in the assembly-line environment. Because last 2 times, I brought up my concerns with my ortho he repeatedly showed me the "before and after images of teeth only", as if teeth alignment is the only thing that matters in an orthodontic treatment.
3. The treatment will be more than a few months, and I should not buy the just 2 more months my ortho was saying. He said it will take 2+ months just to close the spaces from extraction and then when the wisdom teeth show up fully, then make sure they are braced as well, so they are aligned.
4. He also said an experienced ortho wouldn't leave it like this, but "torque" it a bit. I couldn't get what this meant fully though.

As I was going to post this, the website showed me that you have posted, Chichi. I just noticed that you're from NJ as well. I don't know if you're a mom of a child getting braces, but will you be willing to share any info about your orthodontist, if you're happy with them. I live in Central NJ.

[jenim]

[quote="chichi"][quote="jenim"]I really wish someone would be able to revive her deleted posts as I want to see what her concerns were. [/quote]
Her story is literally EXACTLY the same as yours... teenage daughter, extractions at 12 or 13, mother doesn't like the way the kid's face looks anymore, mother kept pushing "functional" orthodontics, mother is stressed and depressed to the point that I think she needed therapy more than the kid needed the braces.

Just some differences I can point out:
- I can infer from other people quoting on the other thread, that mom's daughter is 16 or more, my daughter is just 12 - but got her teeth extracted when she was 10, very early before any other treatment option was even considered!

I'm not at the point I need therapy, I've gone through much worse things in my life personally and still surviving. BUT willing to do whatever it takes, if my concerns about extractions are proven legit. But there's definitely something about her mouth and chin that looks so weird, that does not look anything like the child I saw even the beginning of last year, even taking into account the growth spurts at this age. Like you said, she's still in-treatment, with the jaw still developing, that's why I asked in this forum whether (if it's the ultimate option) if my daughter is in a better position for reversal now since she's only 12.

The 2nd ortho said he hasn't done any reversal and wouldn't suggest that for her because reversals are "extensive" - he didn't detail how and since she's already nearing the end of her treatment, to torque it a bit.

[chichi]

As I was going to post this, the website showed me that you have posted, Chichi. I just noticed that you're from NJ as well. I don't know if you're a mom of a child getting braces, but will you be willing to share any info about your orthodontist, if you're happy with them. I live in Central NJ.

I'm in North Jersey - Hudson County to be more specific. I don't have kids... just a 20-something in braces. My ortho is the same one everyone went to when we were younger (I never had braces as a kid) and he did extract children's teeth when necessary. I have several friends who had premolars removed in their preteen years and I haven't seen any of the negative effects. Perhaps he just used them appropriately.

[jenim]

Chichi, sorry about that -don't know why I thought you might have a kid getting braces
I saw your signature later on and noticed you're the one with braces, but I didn't have edit options then.

Hudson is like so far off for me, otherwise I wouldn't hesitate to go there either. I have an appt with another ortho on Monday for an evaluation (40 minutes away) and don't know what he might say. I'm wondering if I should actually take her to a cosmetic type dentist (don't know if such a thing exists outside of hollywood) just to get an opinion from the cosmetic point of view. Right now my problem seems to be settling on the one ortho or whatever specialist who is GOOD - someone who will genuinely tell me whether I really need to be concerned or if I'm worried over nothing.

[jenim]

I saw your pic too, you don't have that downward curve of the lip that I'm seeing in my daughter.

Yeah if you have big teeth or a small mouth, it's very likely extractions are the only way and will actually give a great result.

I've noticed the space between my nose and mouth has a tiny bit more of a slope after having 2 teeth taken out (not when I smile), but that's to be expected as I had quite a big overjet and crowding. Removing teeth and then pushing everything back will have some facial changes, but they're not all for the bad! Some even say their face looks better for it, more slimmer. It depends on the person, if they already have sunken in cheeks, dark circles, etc then it'll probably accentuate that more. The only other alternative can be surgery or leaving the teeth crowded, it depends on how much you want straight teeth really, whether it's worth it to you. Everyone knows a good smile makes a person a lot more attractive. I know I definitely look better with straighter teeth than I did before.

Angel, thanks for providing some insight and I tend to agree. Extractions cannot always be bad, but that's the idea I had before reading some posts on this forum. I thought everyone will have health issues later on, it seems like some do and some don't. In any case, I think the Orthos need to evaluate with the parents of children how childrens' face might change after the extraction. Just like how physicians warn you of side effects when prescribing certain medication. My daughter's face wasn't too chubby to start with and extraction has made it definitely look longer, 2 years post. I'm still not sure why in her case he didn't try the palate expander that I'm reading about here, some orthos have even suggested it for adults as I read in a post here! This option was never even mentioned to us, in fact the only option mentioned was extraction and we started treatment when she was just 10. It seems like he picked the quickest option to straighten her teeth. The other thing I'm coming to realize is, I was "assigned" the older ortho in the group and I didn't mind, thinking he's going to be more experienced, and sometimes even have specifically requested adjustment appts with him. But I'm now wondering if the younger ortho perhaps would have thought of a different kind of treatment over the extractions. The older one probably thinks of extractions before anything else b'cos it's very old style and that's all they did in those days of treatment!

Even when I looked at your pic, something about it made me ask you if you'd had extractions, especially the profile picture. Sorry, I'm not pointing out any negativity, just my observation.
I would like to know if there are others on this forum who had 4 premolars extracted in their pre-teen or even their teen years and who are adults now - in their 20s, 30s, 40s etc and are free of any issues (both cosmetic and healthwise) ? Or did anyone have a sunken in look - like the mouth area pushed in, but after their wisdom teeth were in place, did the ortho re-align by bringing the retracted arch forward?

Sometimes I don't even know if my questions are making sense, but this is the only way for me to learn. Especially to be equipped with knowledge to ask the right things to our ortho who usually just disregards my concerns. I think I'm ok when I write, but may not be good communicating verbally and I want to prepare myself with the right things to ask him next week so it's conveyed properly, as I want this to be a power-consultation. I'm in such a big dilemma now whether it's best for him to close the small spaces in her upper teeth or for him to abandon at this point, as it doesn't make sense to close the spaces, only to re-open them if the implant approach is taken.