Approach difference US/europe?

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#1 Post by **butterfly** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:22 am

HI

Reading many posts here I come to think that there is a big difference between the US and the European approach to wearing braces as an adult.

I'd like to hear your comments about it. Maby it is true or maybe it's just my impression.

I read here many times that Europeans seem to be pressured by their invironment to kinda justify their braces decision so they won't appear vain, especially because there is so much money involved. Sometimes people say "I do it for medical reasons only. Since the insurance pays it, there must be a need!" It sounds like it is something wrong with investing your money in just looking better.

Although ortho treatment can enhance teeth health it is not medically necessary like an appendix surgery would be. My granny never fixed her crooked teeth and she still has most of them. If you keep a good cleaning routine with special brushes, your teeth can live a long and healthy life.

So let's face it - this is a merely cosmetic thing. But I have the impression that in Europe people don't recognize this fact. The medical need is stressed much more than the psychological need for a nice, normal looking smile.

US people seem to see this differently - To better your appearance is regardad es something positive rather then a negative act of vanity and a sign of a superficial lifestyle.

Is it true or just my impression?

Does the fact that European children get braces for free while in US you have to pay for it anything to do with this?

I think about this a lot because I was born in Europe and moved to Isreal - which is VERY American in almost any aspect of culture, including the positive approach to cosmetic treatments, while my folks back there in Europe seem to disagree with my decision and consider it a useless expense. "Why this now? - you are already married!" was the climax of stupid comments I got on the phone.

"If you don't need it, don't do it. Looks are not important" seems to be widespread in (at least northern) Europe.

What do you think? Is there a cultural difference?

#2 Post by **Svensk Tiger** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:41 am

An interesting question. I have to say that I haven't personally noticed any differences in attitude, but then I haven't been hanging around here for long so maybe I've just not seen it yet? The only thing I can say is that based on my limited experience of the US, there do seem to be more adults in braces there than there are here in the UK. Perhaps this reflects some difference in attitude?

I have to agree with KK though that it's definitely not just cosmetic. I suffer constant headaches, aches and pains in my neck and back, and severe jaw pain (including clicking and grinding). All because of my mismatched, misaligned jaws and teeth. If after my orthodontics and surgery I can have just one day where I can start the day without a headache it'll be worth every penny.Maybe I'm on the extreme side but surely even the correction of mild crowding could have good dental health benefits?

Anyway, sorry I can't really add to the US/Europe debate but I would be very interested to see if anyone else has observed any significant differences.

#3 Post by **butterfly** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:42 am

Lucyloop wrote: If people just want perfect teeth for no other reason other than cosmetic.. the NHS won't cover it.

What it is? Is it a state based insurance system? I suppose it is.

This might cause these typical attitudes:

- Someone decides who "deserves" treatment and who doesn't.
- People are led to conclude that if you don't deserve it there is no need for it.
- If you do it anyway you probably are a vain and shallow person.

In other US American oriented countries dental health in general is not covered by any standard insurance. You pay for it privately - be it a filling, be it full braces.

This causes the following attitudes:

- There is no difference between "medical reasons" and "cosmetic reasons". If you want good teeth - you pay big time. Which means:
- If you have ugly, bad, crooked or rotten teeth you must be poor. If you have good teeth or are in the process of the making you must be wealthy.

Noone thinks that it is basically "OK" to walk around with a mess in your mouth because if makes you look poor. And who wants to look poor?

For example my ortho has two practices, both of them located in rich neighborhoods. Going to the ortho or having your child going there it's like driving a German car

Does this make any sense to anyone?

#4 Post by **drazda** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:19 am

"Why this now? - you are already married!"

This would have made me so angry! Like the only reason to have straight teeth is to attract a man? I know I did it totally for myself.

#5 Post by **HollyDontSpend** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:39 pm

Wow! Butterfly that would be an interesting topic for a thesis or paper in sociology or maybe even for Orthodontisty! It sounds like you are on to something.

#6 Post by **Marzipan** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:10 pm

Very interesting question. From what I'm hearing, I wish I lived in Europe or somewhere where people aren't so focused on appearance! In my case it's purely cosmetic, which is why I waited so long. It's not worth spending a lot of money on. It just happens that it suddenly occurred to me that my job is giving me a big chunk of money yearly for my health spending account that will be lost if not used, plus my dental plan has a decent co-pay for orthodontics. It will be almost literally free. Otherwise I would not do it.

I do feel a bit silly about the cosmetic thing, but I also know it'll make me feel better about myself. After all, I take regular showers and wear clean clothes and comb my hair so I can look my best. So why not this as well, at this point in my life? If it were just a gap between my front teeth, I wouldn't do it. But it's more than that - there are gaps everywhere and teeth sticking out in the wrong direction.

#7 Post by **butterfly** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:33 am

Lucyloop wrote:The only exception to this I think is cosmetic surgery (unless it is needed after injury or is causing psychological damage). Every UK citizen is given an NHS card & number and is entitled to free health care.

I know this system. I lived with it almost 20 years and thought this is the only way to look at things.

The problem with this approach is the following: Someone other than you (the state, the government, the people) decides who is "worthy" of cosmetic treatments. As you said, after an accident it's considered OK, but "Just like that" it is not. Which means - if I was born with perfect teeth and have an accident and it messes up my teeth so they stick out to all directions and 2 are missing, I will get orthodontic treatment. But if I was born like this the society does not see a need to fix it. I should "live with it".

Another example. A woman looses her breasts because of cancer. The NHS would pay for restoring her breasts. Although noone needs breasts to live a healthy life it is commonly accepted that missing breasts cause psychological distress for a woman. But what if a woman was born with small breasts, small enough so she never wear anything that makes her look a true female? Unless she geos to a psychiatrist that qualifies her as psychologically unstable or anything humiliating like that she does not deserve implants. Meaning: "Unless you are a psych f*uckup you don`t deserve it. Live with it or pay for your vanity."

This causes people to suffer from their imperfection all their life. They convince themselves that "looks are not important and it's meant to be like this" but it's all a lie. Everyone wants to look good because it makes you feel good!

To be honest I was relieved when I left Europe and found people that were completely unterstanding about my teeth issue. There was no question that this has to be fixed - on the opposite if was expected that I do it as soon as I have the means.

I am very very sceptical about all these "state based health things". It tends to categorize people in two groups - the ones that deserve cosmetic fixes and those that don't. Because of the socialist background of this agenda everyone who does have the means to afford it is regarded as vain - and basically a bad person.

Thoughts anyone? Am I completely wrong?

#8 Post by **dfac001** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:26 am

I think about this a lot because I was born in Europe and moved to Isreal - which is VERY American in almost any aspect of culture, including the positive approach to cosmetic treatments, while my folks back there in Europe seem to disagree with my decision and consider it a useless expense. "Why this now? - you are already married!" was the climax of stupid comments I got on the phone. Sad "If you don't need it, don't do it. Looks are not important" seems to be widespread in (at least northern) Europe.

What do you think? Is there a cultural difference?

well...I dunno...

I grew up in HK, which was british colony at that time. Did that make me more european at that time?

haha...I don't think so...But yeah I felt like it, that's part of the reasons why I didn't get braces when I was a kid. I thought it was for cosmetics.
and somehow maybe the society was stressing that too.

Now I have lived in the US for 5 yrs and hey, suddenly my stubborn mind has changed and I accept the fact that there's a health reason behind it. No matter how hard I brush, it's not as clean as others with straight teeth.
And I'll have periodontal disease very soon.

#9 Post by **Svensk Tiger** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:57 am

Lucyloop is spot on about the NHS, but Butterfly I know you said you lived here for a long time but I still don't think you've quite got it. Your example of a woman with small breasts not being eligible for NHS treatment is oversimplified. If the woman genuinely suffered emotional trauma because of her body image she would get a breast enlargement on the NHS and she wouldn't need to see a pyschiatrist. Her GP would assess how it was affecting her emotional wellbeing. I'm not sure why you think that someone needs to be diagnosed as pychologically messed up before receiving "cosmetic" treatment on the NHS because that is certainly not the case

I have a friend who received her breast reduction on the NHS for reasons of emotional distress so I do have some experience with this. Regarding teeth, while some adults may not be eligible, in my experience most people seeking orthodontic treatment are in fact eligible so I'm not sure that in practise many people would be turned away. It's not really a case of deciding who is "worthy". Bear in mind that emotional distress caused by a physical "flaw" is taken into consideration and will often grant the patient NHS treatment.

I don't agree that people are characterised due to this system. I've never known anyone considered to be "bad" because they can afford to go private. I decided to have my teeth done privately despite being eligible for NHS treatment as the wait was so long. Does anyone think the worse of me for it? No, not at all. In fact, people generally don't have an opinion. They see it as my teeth, my choice. And that's how it should be.

Apart from that I'd just like to say that I agree with Lucyloop's post completely

#10 Post by **butterfly** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:09 am

Svensk Tiger wrote: Bear in mind that emotional distress caused by a physical "flaw" is taken into consideration and will often grant the patient NHS treatment.

OK let's say it like this: Is getting braces on NHS because of asserted psychological distress considered something you would brag to your friends and coworkers about? Isn't it rather something you would want your future boss not to know because he might think of you as a person with psychological issues?

#11 Post by **butterfly** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:34 am

Sorry if it sounded confusing. English is not my mother tongue.
I will try to explain.

I am not saying that anyone undergoing a cosmetic treatment of any kind has psychological issues. I think that a system that differentiates between necessary and unnecessary cosmetic changes (ie. accident yes, just like this no) causes people to think that anyone who does it might have some not so healthy issues.... Get what I mean? If all kinds of treatments like this are everyones own business it`s different.

why would you brag to your friends and co-workers about getting braces

Not everyone can afford it. It's a status symbol. Here women brag about doing a face lift! They speak openly about it. In Europe it's something you are ashamed of and keep as a secret.

#12 Post by **butterfly** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:20 am

I know.. life is rough and most people are bad! The world is a shallow place where everything that counts are looks and money. That's the way it is. It is like this in Europe as it is in the US - the only difference is, if you are US oriented you can afford to admit it!

I always thought that things that you medically need are covered by the insurance. But this is not true. It's a simple contract between you and the insurance. YOU choose what you want covered and you pay for it. It's fair like this because there is no judgment involved which procedures are necessary and which are "only for vanity". My insurance doesn't pay anything teeth related but it covers 1 pair of glasses each year....

#13 Post by **butterfly** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:17 am

Sorry if I sounded so negative. No I didn't have any specific bad experience.

Of course I exaggerate a lot and I put people into boxes on purpose because I wanted to look for trends in attitudes. I thought I discovered differences in the "big picture". Of course not everyone is like the boxes I opened... This should be obvious. We are all unique and different!

#14 Post by **Svensk Tiger** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:24 am

I'm not sure I fully understand what Butterfly is trying to get at but as far as I'm aware people don't "brag" about anything to anyone! No-one outside my immediate family/friends knows whether my braces are for cosmetic/functional/psychological reasons and they don't care! You seem to think that having some emotional distress over a physical attribute equals deep psychosis to be ashamed of! Well, I'd have to disagree. As well as having functional problems the way my teeth and jaw looks does affect me psychologically and it certainly affects my self esteem but I'm hardly about to go and jump off a bridge. I don't care anyway who knows that I'm self conscious about it, it's not something that I try to hide. I think you have a slightly skewed view of the topic. I apologise if I'm wrong but this is certainly how it comes across when reading your posts.

I definitely don't agree with your views on Europe with regard to this topic, and I'm a born and bred Briton for all my 25 years

I've never known anyone care whether someone had treatment on the NHS or pays for it themselves, this is with regard to any sort of treatment. The truth is that no-one would know anyway. Would you be able to tell if someone had their braces fitted/operation carried out for free or if they paid for it? Of course not. No-one cares anyway!

I was wondering what you had seen/experienced to make you feel this way as I would say that it is certainly not a typical view.

#15 Post by **weird_wired** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:24 am

<i>That is such a sad way to see the world and the people in it. I hope you can learn to look past this and see what an amazing and beautiful world this is and how valued many people are for their gifts ... things that no amount of money could ever buy.</i>

You live in Adelaide which is a lovely city - I have been there several times. In a country like Australia (which I also love) the world does seem more beautiful and people do seem more valued.

Leave that country for somewhere with no healthcare, minimal equal rights, no proper labour laws, institutionalised ethnic discrimination: and you will quickly realise how un-valued people are for their gifts.

It should be a beautiful world and in many western-style "bubbles" it is. Outside, it is a very harsh, very cruel world. I know that I am one of the lucky ones, since working overseas I never let myself forget it.