Hi there,
After being braced over 10 months, I am now ready for surgery. There are few oral surgeons both my ortho and dentist consider really reliable in the area, and so upon my ortho's advice, I went to consult with a very reputable ortho in Alabama, who refered me to an oral surgeon he usually works with in the same city. The consultation went well, a surgical plan was designed (LeFort 1 impaction and sliding genioplasty), and we set-up a date. I have no insurance and will pay the whole thing myself. The surgeon will charge aroung 6000 US$, plus a few hundred bucks for labwork, and I would have to stay about a week in a hotel after surgery. The first night I would have to spend at the hospital. The only thing that remained to be known was how much the hospital is going to charge me for anesthesia and hospital fees for one night.
Well, yesterday the oral surgeon's secretary sent me the estimated hospital costs : 2000$ for anesthesia and... 14 000$ for ONE NIGHT!!!!
At first I thought she was mistaken by one zero. Well, guess what ? There was no mistake, this is the cost that the hospital charges non-insured patients. I tried to have her explain how on earth they could justify such a ridiculously humongous fee, but she just said that's what they charge, that this has nothing to do with the oral surgeon himself, and... you are not going to believe this - the hospital initially wanted... 22 000$, but she "negociated it down" to 14 000!!!
Besides being speechless, I am completely down, since this means I have to call the whole thing off ! I mean, the hospital charges more than twice as much as the surgeon ! Does this make any sense?
INSANE HOSPITAL FEES!!!!
Moderator: bbsadmin
thats utterly ridiculous and sadly i am not surprised. the medical field is a gold mine for charging insane amounts for its services. You should see what physical therapists charge for a bag of ice. Some places would charge insurance companies at least $50 for putting a bag of ice on you after treatment. You can easily get a 5pound bag of ice for $1 and some zip lock bags for $3. I work in the allied medical (sports med) field.
I hope there is a more feasible avenue for you. I wouldn't do that either even if i had the money
I hope there is a more feasible avenue for you. I wouldn't do that either even if i had the money
fees
Those fees are absoultely ridiculous!
My surgery was done in Canada so my surgeon charged $3000, but there is no hospital fee here, so that was it.
I really hope you can find a better deal, or maybe find some coverage from the government? Don't give up yet!
Good Luck,
Kate
My surgery was done in Canada so my surgeon charged $3000, but there is no hospital fee here, so that was it.
I really hope you can find a better deal, or maybe find some coverage from the government? Don't give up yet!
Good Luck,
Kate
Does the hospital know that you are paying for this "out of pocket?" Sometimes physiclans and facilities have different (lower) fees if no insurance plan is involved.
Is there another hospital or faciity that you can use instead of this hospital? You may want to discuss this with your surgeon, as well. Perhaps he can help you figure out what to do.
Is there another hospital or faciity that you can use instead of this hospital? You may want to discuss this with your surgeon, as well. Perhaps he can help you figure out what to do.
I'm the owner/admin of this site. Had ceramic uppers, metal lowers ~3 years in my early 40's. Now in Hawley retainers at night!
Thanks to all for your answers.
Meryaten, what you say about non-insured patients is a surprise to me. I thought when a patient didn't have insurance, he would have to pay out of pocket, but NOT MORE than what the insurance of a non-insured patient would have to pay! I didn't know that insurance companies negociated the prices, as opposed to an isolated patient. So these insurance companies are the equivalent of Walmart/Costco etc. in the medical field! I guess I was being naive and thanks for opening my eyes.
Yes I live in Canada, but as I said before, my ortho and dentists do not trust many oral surgeons in the area, and the ones considered good are so overwhelmed with patients that they are : one, very picky about who they choose to perform surgery on (to the others they say they don't need it. I know : been there, done that). Two, it takes forever to just get an appointment with them (we're talking over 3 months sometimes). That means that surgery would be delayed at least 7 or 8 months. This is why I am seeking possibiliies to have surgery in the US, in spite of the numerous disadvantages (cost, flights, accommodation...)
I am now trying to contact the oral surgeon in Alabama to let him know of this and find out if he can do the surgery in an outpatient facility.
In the meantime, I have consulted another oral surgeon here in Canada yesterday, and he doesn't think I am a good candidate for upper jaw impaction because of my age (I am 47) and risks of losing teeth as a result of surgery. That's even more confusing... God, I wish I started looking for an oral surgeon much earlier in the process. But my ortho didn't want to communicate on the subject, always telling me : we are not there yet, we are not there yet. Communication with him was so frustrating that I finally switched to another ortho about a month ago. I knew the braces journey wasn't going to be an easy one, but this is definitely much harder and emotionally difficult than I expected. And on top of it all, my dentist and ortho (former one as well as new one) don't even agree on which oral surgeons they would consider "acceptable".
Sorry for all the venting. This is putting an enormous pressure on me, especially since my face has changed for the worse by being in braces (my long face syndrome is more obvious) and I truly find find it difficult to look at myself in the mirror now.
Meryaten, what you say about non-insured patients is a surprise to me. I thought when a patient didn't have insurance, he would have to pay out of pocket, but NOT MORE than what the insurance of a non-insured patient would have to pay! I didn't know that insurance companies negociated the prices, as opposed to an isolated patient. So these insurance companies are the equivalent of Walmart/Costco etc. in the medical field! I guess I was being naive and thanks for opening my eyes.
Yes I live in Canada, but as I said before, my ortho and dentists do not trust many oral surgeons in the area, and the ones considered good are so overwhelmed with patients that they are : one, very picky about who they choose to perform surgery on (to the others they say they don't need it. I know : been there, done that). Two, it takes forever to just get an appointment with them (we're talking over 3 months sometimes). That means that surgery would be delayed at least 7 or 8 months. This is why I am seeking possibiliies to have surgery in the US, in spite of the numerous disadvantages (cost, flights, accommodation...)
I am now trying to contact the oral surgeon in Alabama to let him know of this and find out if he can do the surgery in an outpatient facility.
In the meantime, I have consulted another oral surgeon here in Canada yesterday, and he doesn't think I am a good candidate for upper jaw impaction because of my age (I am 47) and risks of losing teeth as a result of surgery. That's even more confusing... God, I wish I started looking for an oral surgeon much earlier in the process. But my ortho didn't want to communicate on the subject, always telling me : we are not there yet, we are not there yet. Communication with him was so frustrating that I finally switched to another ortho about a month ago. I knew the braces journey wasn't going to be an easy one, but this is definitely much harder and emotionally difficult than I expected. And on top of it all, my dentist and ortho (former one as well as new one) don't even agree on which oral surgeons they would consider "acceptable".
Sorry for all the venting. This is putting an enormous pressure on me, especially since my face has changed for the worse by being in braces (my long face syndrome is more obvious) and I truly find find it difficult to look at myself in the mirror now.
Broochie,
I really feel sorry for your several apparent roadblocks. I am in a big city in Texas and there are just a few surgeons that specialize in jaw surgery in my health plan. Plenty of cosmetic surgeons here, though!
I am also 47 and haven't been told anything about "losing teeth" after my jaw surgery. I do have several lower teeth missing due to dentists being overzealous about extracting teeth when I was younger since I had overcrowding in my jaws. Of course, this in effect made my jaw even more narrow! I have had lower asymmetry for awhile and a crossbite. I had had braces for over a year and if I don't have surgery now, my teeth will not meet correctly, either.
I am just saying don't give up hope. You want to do this and someone out there has to be willing to help you. I would network, network, and find a compassionate Dr. who understands your concerns and ask for his help in finding a good surgeon. Do you have referral agencies in Canada?
Lo
I really feel sorry for your several apparent roadblocks. I am in a big city in Texas and there are just a few surgeons that specialize in jaw surgery in my health plan. Plenty of cosmetic surgeons here, though!
I am also 47 and haven't been told anything about "losing teeth" after my jaw surgery. I do have several lower teeth missing due to dentists being overzealous about extracting teeth when I was younger since I had overcrowding in my jaws. Of course, this in effect made my jaw even more narrow! I have had lower asymmetry for awhile and a crossbite. I had had braces for over a year and if I don't have surgery now, my teeth will not meet correctly, either.
I am just saying don't give up hope. You want to do this and someone out there has to be willing to help you. I would network, network, and find a compassionate Dr. who understands your concerns and ask for his help in finding a good surgeon. Do you have referral agencies in Canada?
Lo
Thank you Meryaten and all of you guys for your interest and support.
First, let me tell you about the various opinions I got from different oral surgeons:
OS #1 said I had no long face, I looked okay the way I was, and the gummy smile could be easily fixed by having two botox shots on top of the upper lip to prevent it from uncovering too much gum tissue when smiling. The injections would have to be repeated every 4 to 6 months, end of story. He agreed on the genio, but only after I was finished with the braces. He was condescending and made me feel stupid by saying that the long face was in my imagination.
0S #2 I never met in person, but I had what they call a paper consultation with him. He is very famous in the maxfax community and lives in California. You send him photos, several sets of models taken before braces and at several stages of treatment, Xrays and other stuff, and he comes up with a surgical plan. His opinion was I did have long face syndrome and was just about ready for surgery (this was back in Decembre 06). His surgical plan was multisegmented Lefort 1 with impaction (4 millimiters) and advancement, BSSO and genio. But it would cost around 55Â 000 US$, not including flights, accommodatin, return trips for follow-up, etc. Nothing I can afford. But my dentist thinks he is the best in the world, and that I should either have the surgery with him or not have it at all. Every time I mention the name of an OS in the Montreal region, he shrugs and says he would not let "any of them touch him with a 10-foot pole". Except for OS #1, but OS#1 is picky about his patients and turned me down anyway. My former ortho thought he might be able to "bend his arm" for him to agree on doing surgery on me, but how healthy is it to beg a surgeon who is not interested in operating you in the first place?
OS #3 is the one in Alabama, who said I was ready for surgery. Lefort 1 with impaction (no advancement and no multisegment here), and genio. No BSSO was necessary in his opinion.
OS #4 whom I saw yesterday here in Montreal thinks I am too old for this, that after 35 the body tissues do not heal as well, and that I might end-up losing upper molars because there is some bone-loss.
Conflicting opinions ? Naah...
On top of that, things are even more complicated than I thought. When I switched to the new ortho, after I told him my concern about the surgery, he advised me to get a consultation with the ortho in Alabama. So I ASSUMED he thought I was ready for surgery. Well, it appears I got a little carried away, and actually he thinks I am not ready yet.
Also, he says he is surprised at how quickly US oral surgeons seem to be jumping on the surgery wagon. He says that he understands my concerns, but warns me against a surgery that is purely cosmetic. Indeed, a gummy smile is not a medical condition, as long as the bite and alignement are good. But it bothers me. So is it that orthos and oral surgeons are more "conservative" here in Canada, or are the US surgeons willing to make money and do surgeries at the drop of a hat? I really don't know anymore, I am very confused at this point.
BTW, I got an email today from the Alabama oral surgeon's secretary. The hospital fees have already been reduced from 23Â 000 to 14Â 000, that's the best deal they can come up with. Well, goodbye. I am not as frustrated now that my ortho made it clear that I was not ready yet. As disappointed as I might be at the delay, it will give me time to look for other options, but they seem to be scarce in my area. Any advice would be welcome.
Sorry about the looooong post.
First, let me tell you about the various opinions I got from different oral surgeons:
OS #1 said I had no long face, I looked okay the way I was, and the gummy smile could be easily fixed by having two botox shots on top of the upper lip to prevent it from uncovering too much gum tissue when smiling. The injections would have to be repeated every 4 to 6 months, end of story. He agreed on the genio, but only after I was finished with the braces. He was condescending and made me feel stupid by saying that the long face was in my imagination.
0S #2 I never met in person, but I had what they call a paper consultation with him. He is very famous in the maxfax community and lives in California. You send him photos, several sets of models taken before braces and at several stages of treatment, Xrays and other stuff, and he comes up with a surgical plan. His opinion was I did have long face syndrome and was just about ready for surgery (this was back in Decembre 06). His surgical plan was multisegmented Lefort 1 with impaction (4 millimiters) and advancement, BSSO and genio. But it would cost around 55Â 000 US$, not including flights, accommodatin, return trips for follow-up, etc. Nothing I can afford. But my dentist thinks he is the best in the world, and that I should either have the surgery with him or not have it at all. Every time I mention the name of an OS in the Montreal region, he shrugs and says he would not let "any of them touch him with a 10-foot pole". Except for OS #1, but OS#1 is picky about his patients and turned me down anyway. My former ortho thought he might be able to "bend his arm" for him to agree on doing surgery on me, but how healthy is it to beg a surgeon who is not interested in operating you in the first place?
OS #3 is the one in Alabama, who said I was ready for surgery. Lefort 1 with impaction (no advancement and no multisegment here), and genio. No BSSO was necessary in his opinion.
OS #4 whom I saw yesterday here in Montreal thinks I am too old for this, that after 35 the body tissues do not heal as well, and that I might end-up losing upper molars because there is some bone-loss.
Conflicting opinions ? Naah...
On top of that, things are even more complicated than I thought. When I switched to the new ortho, after I told him my concern about the surgery, he advised me to get a consultation with the ortho in Alabama. So I ASSUMED he thought I was ready for surgery. Well, it appears I got a little carried away, and actually he thinks I am not ready yet.
Also, he says he is surprised at how quickly US oral surgeons seem to be jumping on the surgery wagon. He says that he understands my concerns, but warns me against a surgery that is purely cosmetic. Indeed, a gummy smile is not a medical condition, as long as the bite and alignement are good. But it bothers me. So is it that orthos and oral surgeons are more "conservative" here in Canada, or are the US surgeons willing to make money and do surgeries at the drop of a hat? I really don't know anymore, I am very confused at this point.
BTW, I got an email today from the Alabama oral surgeon's secretary. The hospital fees have already been reduced from 23Â 000 to 14Â 000, that's the best deal they can come up with. Well, goodbye. I am not as frustrated now that my ortho made it clear that I was not ready yet. As disappointed as I might be at the delay, it will give me time to look for other options, but they seem to be scarce in my area. Any advice would be welcome.
Sorry about the looooong post.
I was shocked at hospital fees as well. My hospital charges came to $27,555 including two nights (1,320 for two nights was billed). In addition to that there was a $3,300 bill from the anesthesia people. So over $30,000 in hospital charges and just under $16,00 for upper, lower and genio. However, just yesterday I had a large refund check arrive from the surgeon's office. Apparently after a resubmission of my case to my insurance my insurance would not pay out the contracted amount to the surgeon. So apparently the surgeon's office wrote my case off, returned the money they received from the insurance company and credited back to me my out of pocket for the surgery. So, how often in life soes this happen, my surgery was basically free. I paid about $1,300 as my share of the hospital bill. I've learned in this process that anything can happen so keep trying and maybe you can find a solution to paying for the surgery.
hehehe....for those of you who know me, the refund sure makes me feel better about spending too much on my wedding dress!
hehehe....for those of you who know me, the refund sure makes me feel better about spending too much on my wedding dress!
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angelgarcia
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:28 am
- Location: Edmonton, Canada
OMG broochie sorry to hear that!
if it helps any, i am in edmonton and had an excellent ortho and surgeon. their names:
Dr. Douglas Haberstock (ortho)
Dr. Saranjeev Lalh (surgeon)
both guys seemed very open-minded and answered all my pre-surgery questions without condescension or pushiness.
my surgery was lower jaw and cost $3000.
if it helps any, i am in edmonton and had an excellent ortho and surgeon. their names:
Dr. Douglas Haberstock (ortho)
Dr. Saranjeev Lalh (surgeon)
both guys seemed very open-minded and answered all my pre-surgery questions without condescension or pushiness.
my surgery was lower jaw and cost $3000.
<-- 4 months post-op.
Hi Broochie,
I would be happy to give you contact information for my surgeon if you want - I am in BC (not too far for you!) Just send me a private message if you're interested.
Can you tell me - what is impaction of the upper jaw? Does that mean shortening it to correct a gummy smile? I think that is a very common procedure - in fact I had it done myself, along with a few other things!
I am most certain that you can find a qualified surgeon in Canada. I had a fairly complex case - I had both jaws operated on, I had an expansion with bone grafts, upper advancement, lower asymmetry corrected, upper jaw shortened to fix lip incompetence, and the list goes on. The surgeon offered me another procedure as well - bone grafts to fill out my upper lip - purely cosmetic! but I declined. So I don't think there is anything conservative about this guy.
I am very happy with my result.
I don't think you should have to put up with the ordeal that this ortho is putting you through. How much experience does he have with surgical cases anyways?
I would be happy to give you contact information for my surgeon if you want - I am in BC (not too far for you!) Just send me a private message if you're interested.
Can you tell me - what is impaction of the upper jaw? Does that mean shortening it to correct a gummy smile? I think that is a very common procedure - in fact I had it done myself, along with a few other things!
I am most certain that you can find a qualified surgeon in Canada. I had a fairly complex case - I had both jaws operated on, I had an expansion with bone grafts, upper advancement, lower asymmetry corrected, upper jaw shortened to fix lip incompetence, and the list goes on. The surgeon offered me another procedure as well - bone grafts to fill out my upper lip - purely cosmetic! but I declined. So I don't think there is anything conservative about this guy.
I am very happy with my result.
I don't think you should have to put up with the ordeal that this ortho is putting you through. How much experience does he have with surgical cases anyways?