This is going to be long so thanks for your patience reading it. I have to give a bit of history for you to understand how I'm feeling.
I began this journey the end of January 2006 for the purpose of surgery. My teeth were not really bad at all but I understood why they needed to be moved for surgery. It started when a friend of mine, who happens to be a dentist, referred me to an ortho who was a friend of his at that time. I am uninsured and had been turned down by all the insurance companies so this whole thing is out of pocket for me, and I am single w/o family to help. My friend hoped that this ortho might have given me a bit of a break as a result, but at my consultation(which I paid for btw) he told me I was an excellent candidate for surgery and my ortho alone would be $8000. I thought it was a bit high but was also assured he was the best so I should have him do the ortho. After getting all my pre-ortho work done, I went in for my braces and when I went to sign the contract, I found that the cost was $11,080. They said the extra was to consult with the oral surgeon before my surgery. Too bad they did not tell me this in my initial consultation. This does not include the labwork and xrays that they charge extra for and I've spent about a thousand on so far.
I was also told I would be wearing braces 8 months to a year before surgery. It's been just over 2 years and just was approved for surgery last June.
He also gave me an estimation of what the surgery would cost me. Well, after seeing a couple of surgeons here, the cost was much higher than anticipated. To make a long story shorter, there is simply no way I can to this day come up with that. I recently decided to go to Costa Rica for my surgery. After consulting with them over there, I am convinced that my care will be more than what I could have hoped for and am happy in that decision. I had spoken to my ortho's office(big office with many employees and yes, I do often feel like a number) a couple of weeks ago and informed them of my decision. The lady I spoke to told me that although this ortho likes to hand pick the surgeons, that untimately, it is my decision.
So now I have been communication with both sides and I finally got a call from the ortho this evening. He had me in tears(which isn't easy to do) because he does not want to approve me going over there. He claims that he does not know the surgeon and he does not want to have to deal with my case if the surgery goes wrong. I practically begged and told him that there was virtually no other way for me to have surgery(I don't think he is used to too many who are in my financial situation). He wants me to keep going to get more consultations here hoping that one will be less expensive. He just doesn't get it!!! I pleaded and told him that I have been dealing with this for so long. He even mentioned me STOPPING with ortho treatment only saying that is was strictly cosmetic to have my surgery done!
All I want is my surgical hooks placed so I can book my surgery down there. I am frustrated and at the end of my rope! He ended by saying he will at least look into the surgeon but the surgeon will have to do certain things and be on the same page as him. I understand my ortho wanting good results but he does have a bit of a god complex. I feel since it's my body, and I am paying for it, that I should be able to go to whatever surgeon I choose and if he doesn't want to treat me afterwards, fine........I'll find someone who will. But how do I get the surgical hooks on? They are required before I go down there.
Please help someone, I am sooooo stressed now. I feel surgery is not going to happen for me at this point.
Help Please. Problems w/ortho re surgery
Moderator: bbsadmin
Help Please. Problems w/ortho re surgery
October 8, 2008 Lefort1(6mm impaction), BSSO, Genioplasty, Turbinectomies, Partial septoplasty, gum recontoring
First of all (and I hate to say this), I think you're paying far too much for your braces. My total ortho fees were about $7000, and I was a surgical case as well. I have not heard of any one paying much more than $7000 for braces alone. $11,080 is certainly high. Perhaps others will comment, but this is just what I have observed.
I know one or two others on this board have had surgery in Costa Rica with great results. I hope it works out for you. I hope your ortho warms up to the idea, because switching orthos can be inconvenient, cause delays, and will probably cost you even more money. But if you do end up having to find a new ortho, then that's what you'll have to do. You have come this far, after all...
In my experience, the ortho and surgeon need to work together on the treatment plan. I know my ortho and surgeon had several discussions about me. So, whether you go with the same ortho or a new one, you need to get that sorted out in enough time before you go down to Costa Rica.
Just take a deep breath and take things one step at a time. You'll be fine.
I know one or two others on this board have had surgery in Costa Rica with great results. I hope it works out for you. I hope your ortho warms up to the idea, because switching orthos can be inconvenient, cause delays, and will probably cost you even more money. But if you do end up having to find a new ortho, then that's what you'll have to do. You have come this far, after all...
In my experience, the ortho and surgeon need to work together on the treatment plan. I know my ortho and surgeon had several discussions about me. So, whether you go with the same ortho or a new one, you need to get that sorted out in enough time before you go down to Costa Rica.
Just take a deep breath and take things one step at a time. You'll be fine.
Do you have any documentation from your Ortho about his recommendation for you to be having surgery? Anything that states that he works with the surgeon, he recommends surgery, etc etc? Frankly the fact that he would REFUSE your surgeon is utter crap in my mind - is he trying to push you to consult with a particular doctor there?
His fees ARE high in my opinion - I paid 5K for surgery braces, but that was discounted because his actual fees are 7K (since I was a repeat offender, he joked). That was for everything, surgeon consult, braces, xrays, retainers, etc etc etc.
I'd interview another ortho as a backup and say look, can you continue treatment and are you willing to work with the surgeon I've chosen, and pick up where other ortho left off because he's being unreasonable and gave you NO warning?
ALSO argue reliance - inform him that you relied on his good will and that he would work with your surgeon, whomever you chose, and he never indicated that he would have to approve the surgeon therefore he does NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to discontinue surgery in disregard of your contractual services agreement since he didn't reserve that right to begin with and you relied on his representation that he would continue to act as your ortho. You also should be entitled to a refund of money paid - reasonable costs to date if he refuses to continue as your ortho because he is choosing to breach his agreement to be your ortho, not you.
If I were in your shoes, I'd write a very strongly worded letter outlining your position, how you relied on his representation and the representations of his office that your choice of surgeon was ultimately up to you, that he agreed to act as your ortho and that your understanding of such agreement is that he does not have the right to control your surgical process, only the medical aspect of your teeth alignment, etc. If you want PM me and I'll proof read and see if there aren't some state consumer laws that would be something to mention in the letter.
His fees ARE high in my opinion - I paid 5K for surgery braces, but that was discounted because his actual fees are 7K (since I was a repeat offender, he joked). That was for everything, surgeon consult, braces, xrays, retainers, etc etc etc.
I'd interview another ortho as a backup and say look, can you continue treatment and are you willing to work with the surgeon I've chosen, and pick up where other ortho left off because he's being unreasonable and gave you NO warning?
ALSO argue reliance - inform him that you relied on his good will and that he would work with your surgeon, whomever you chose, and he never indicated that he would have to approve the surgeon therefore he does NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to discontinue surgery in disregard of your contractual services agreement since he didn't reserve that right to begin with and you relied on his representation that he would continue to act as your ortho. You also should be entitled to a refund of money paid - reasonable costs to date if he refuses to continue as your ortho because he is choosing to breach his agreement to be your ortho, not you.
If I were in your shoes, I'd write a very strongly worded letter outlining your position, how you relied on his representation and the representations of his office that your choice of surgeon was ultimately up to you, that he agreed to act as your ortho and that your understanding of such agreement is that he does not have the right to control your surgical process, only the medical aspect of your teeth alignment, etc. If you want PM me and I'll proof read and see if there aren't some state consumer laws that would be something to mention in the letter.
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knockuout7788
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:33 pm
.......................
......aww i know how you feel. you seem pretty excited to have the surgery too. i feel really bad for you. and that is too much money for braces. mine were only $4,000 and that is on a monthly plan. i've seen three different orthos and one of them was such a jerk. so i had to switch to another one and spend more money. i dont have much advice, but dont give up, i hope you figure out something soon............ 
I paid around $5000 total since we're throwing numbers out, but anyway...
This is all dependent on you knowing you're in good hands with the Costa Rica guy. i.e. you've done plenty of research, have contacted other patients of his, etc. You know he's a competent surgeon, etc...
What's the worst case scenario? (Well, worst case is you come back horribly disfigured but that's why you check out this surgeon first!) But what's the second worst case scenario? You come back after surgery, happy with results, thrilled that after two years its done, you sit down in the ortho's chair and he refuses to treat you. So you have to go find a new ortho and pay more money which is what you would've had to do anyway, right? So why not get the surgery out of the way first and just kill that variable? Then its done and you start healing. Otherwise, this could go on for another year before anything gets done.
I'm just rambling here but can you call up another orthodontist office and see how much it would cost to have him/her just put hooks on? Just explain the scenario and say the only service you want is to take 10 minutes out of the guy's day and have him put hooks on every bracket. Then off to Costa Rica and the new you comes back and shows up at the guy's office ready to have the hooks removed.
By the way, what I find interesting is that my ortho completely catered to the surgeon's requests, not the other way around. It seems to me that the ortho would want to put your teeth exactly where the surgeon wants them for the best surgery result instead of making the surgeon use his one, $30,000-of-your-money shot to try and get your teeth to fit together properly in a 5 to 8 hour time-frame.
If it were me in your shoes, and your biggest concern in all this is that it may not happen after 2-years of dealing with this crap, then I'd get the surgery done in CR and then come back and show up at his office with your surgery results. I'm not kidding either.Please help someone, I am sooooo stressed now. I feel surgery is not going to happen for me at this point.
This is all dependent on you knowing you're in good hands with the Costa Rica guy. i.e. you've done plenty of research, have contacted other patients of his, etc. You know he's a competent surgeon, etc...
What's the worst case scenario? (Well, worst case is you come back horribly disfigured but that's why you check out this surgeon first!) But what's the second worst case scenario? You come back after surgery, happy with results, thrilled that after two years its done, you sit down in the ortho's chair and he refuses to treat you. So you have to go find a new ortho and pay more money which is what you would've had to do anyway, right? So why not get the surgery out of the way first and just kill that variable? Then its done and you start healing. Otherwise, this could go on for another year before anything gets done.
I'm just rambling here but can you call up another orthodontist office and see how much it would cost to have him/her just put hooks on? Just explain the scenario and say the only service you want is to take 10 minutes out of the guy's day and have him put hooks on every bracket. Then off to Costa Rica and the new you comes back and shows up at the guy's office ready to have the hooks removed.
By the way, what I find interesting is that my ortho completely catered to the surgeon's requests, not the other way around. It seems to me that the ortho would want to put your teeth exactly where the surgeon wants them for the best surgery result instead of making the surgeon use his one, $30,000-of-your-money shot to try and get your teeth to fit together properly in a 5 to 8 hour time-frame.
Yes, this is all probably safer advice, (although not nearly as rebellious.Meryaten wrote:All I can do is say that Arvensis' advice appears sound, and I know her offer of help is absolutely genuine. The one possibility before going down that path is to see if this friend, assuming (s)he is still on good terms with your ortho, might be able to intervene on your behalf, and help broker acceptance of your choice? (Even though, good grief, this should not be necessary!!) It's on his/her advice that you went to this ortho in the first place, after all.
) But as I re-read my post I'm imagining you trying to negotiate a lower price with a new orthodontist while high on codeine and with your mouth banded shut. Probably a little too adventurous for something as traumatic as this. You want all your ducks lined up ahead of time.Would make a great movie though. I hope this guy comes through for you. I know how badly you just want to get it over with.
You guys are amazing! Thank you all for the support and advice!
Arvensis-wow, that is such a kind offer and I will PM you, thanks.
KarlClayLA-I like your way of thinking and that is exactly what I would like to do and will do if I can just find an ortho to put on my hooks.
Meryaten-I didn't mention this earlier because my nerves were so frazzled when I made my post, but.......I would not feel comfortable asking the dentist who is my friend to intervene because they have since had a bad falling out. They no longer speak unless they have to because of differences regarding patients they shared. The ortho went way overboard because things had to be done "his" way.
Actually, a few months back I tried to switch orthos but when I did a consultation with another ortho, I was told that my treatment would be delayed and ultimately would cost me more as well. So I haven't been happy with this ortho for awhile. His work is great but I don't like the attitudes I have encountered with him and some of his staff.
After a good night's rest, I'll be able to think this more clearly tomorrow!
It just has to work out as I have come so far!
Goodnight all, and thanks!
Arvensis-wow, that is such a kind offer and I will PM you, thanks.
KarlClayLA-I like your way of thinking and that is exactly what I would like to do and will do if I can just find an ortho to put on my hooks.
Meryaten-I didn't mention this earlier because my nerves were so frazzled when I made my post, but.......I would not feel comfortable asking the dentist who is my friend to intervene because they have since had a bad falling out. They no longer speak unless they have to because of differences regarding patients they shared. The ortho went way overboard because things had to be done "his" way.
Actually, a few months back I tried to switch orthos but when I did a consultation with another ortho, I was told that my treatment would be delayed and ultimately would cost me more as well. So I haven't been happy with this ortho for awhile. His work is great but I don't like the attitudes I have encountered with him and some of his staff.
After a good night's rest, I'll be able to think this more clearly tomorrow!
It just has to work out as I have come so far!
Goodnight all, and thanks!
October 8, 2008 Lefort1(6mm impaction), BSSO, Genioplasty, Turbinectomies, Partial septoplasty, gum recontoring
This might be a silly question, but might the the surgeon be able to place the surgical hooks? I've gathered that some of you have had more fancy hooks strung onto the archwire, but my surgical hooks were just a piece of wire with a loop on the end that was wrapped around my ceramic brackets only. My surgeon used the existing hooks on the metal brackets and bands. Just a thought.
kaycee
kaycee
Yes, the doctor in Costa Rica does want my surgical hooks put on 2 weeks prior to surgery.
I emailed the surgeon the dilemma with my ortho and the office promply got back to me and told me not to worry and once the doctor got out of surgery she would talk to him about it. So I'm hoping there is a way around this.
Does it make a difference how long a surgical hook is placed before surgery?
I emailed the surgeon the dilemma with my ortho and the office promply got back to me and told me not to worry and once the doctor got out of surgery she would talk to him about it. So I'm hoping there is a way around this.
Does it make a difference how long a surgical hook is placed before surgery?
October 8, 2008 Lefort1(6mm impaction), BSSO, Genioplasty, Turbinectomies, Partial septoplasty, gum recontoring
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4beauty4symmetry
- Posts: 226
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:58 pm
- Location: boston
Hey Ozzy's Mom--sorry I am just now replying to your earlier email.
Man, you need to get a new ortho and fast. Your story made my blood boil How dare he play God with your body, your jaw, your health, your financial security, your life. Also, I suspect a serious need to maintain cultural and social superiority is behind some of this arrogant behavior.
I had two surgeries with the same surgeon that you're going to be operated on by. I decided to embark on it all after having a face to face consultation with him.
You've gotten some good advice here. The only thing I would add is I'm absolutely sure that R. knows somebody in CR who can put on the hooks--he works in a group practice with other dentists, orthos, etc--pretty sure I didn't have those stupid things put on till a few days before I headed down to San Jose. He probably is just being very conservative -- I sometimes find him to be like that--he would make the most conservative recommendation, but sometimes it wasn't always necessary, and he would adjust accordingly. Like suggesting I stay in CR for two weeks following my Sarpe surgery. Then when he saw me about 4 days after the Sarpe. he said I could go home anytime.
The idea that your ortho is going to tell R what to do and vet him, so to speak, is unbelievably insulting. R. has done tons of surgeries and has his name on quite a few peer reviewed articles on ortho surgery, some with Wolford.
If you want to talk over the phone about any of this, including the upcoming surgery in CR, you can email me privately and I'll give you my tel number.
Btw, I paid 4500 for orthodontics in Boston. . . . When I went in for my post-debracing, retainer wearing checkup, my orthodontist acknowledged for the first time that he had been very skeptical about my having the surgery in CR, but that it had turned out very well.
Keep the faith. And keep strong.
4beauty4symmetry and 4patients'rights2self-determination
Man, you need to get a new ortho and fast. Your story made my blood boil How dare he play God with your body, your jaw, your health, your financial security, your life. Also, I suspect a serious need to maintain cultural and social superiority is behind some of this arrogant behavior.
I had two surgeries with the same surgeon that you're going to be operated on by. I decided to embark on it all after having a face to face consultation with him.
You've gotten some good advice here. The only thing I would add is I'm absolutely sure that R. knows somebody in CR who can put on the hooks--he works in a group practice with other dentists, orthos, etc--pretty sure I didn't have those stupid things put on till a few days before I headed down to San Jose. He probably is just being very conservative -- I sometimes find him to be like that--he would make the most conservative recommendation, but sometimes it wasn't always necessary, and he would adjust accordingly. Like suggesting I stay in CR for two weeks following my Sarpe surgery. Then when he saw me about 4 days after the Sarpe. he said I could go home anytime.
The idea that your ortho is going to tell R what to do and vet him, so to speak, is unbelievably insulting. R. has done tons of surgeries and has his name on quite a few peer reviewed articles on ortho surgery, some with Wolford.
If you want to talk over the phone about any of this, including the upcoming surgery in CR, you can email me privately and I'll give you my tel number.
Btw, I paid 4500 for orthodontics in Boston. . . . When I went in for my post-debracing, retainer wearing checkup, my orthodontist acknowledged for the first time that he had been very skeptical about my having the surgery in CR, but that it had turned out very well.
Keep the faith. And keep strong.
4beauty4symmetry and 4patients'rights2self-determination
Dec 2006--RPE followed by SARPE surgery
Jan 2007--Braces
Nov 2007 BSSO mandibular setback, genioplasty, and two implant anchors. Surgery-eve reprieve from Lefort.
May 2008--Debraced
Surgeries in Costa Rica, Orthodontics in Massachusetts.
All to fix an openbite, crossbite, underbite, and two missing bottom molars.
Jan 2007--Braces
Nov 2007 BSSO mandibular setback, genioplasty, and two implant anchors. Surgery-eve reprieve from Lefort.
May 2008--Debraced
Surgeries in Costa Rica, Orthodontics in Massachusetts.
All to fix an openbite, crossbite, underbite, and two missing bottom molars.
I had a surgery done in CR in June by Dr. R just as 4beauty4symmetry.
I love the results...I love Dr. R.
You just need to talk some sense into your ortho's ignorant mind. Be confident and don't let someone like him decide your well being. he has to put the surgical stuff ...man you are paying so much money for your braces...is he mad because one of his doctor friends will not get a share of your money?
Good luck
I love the results...I love Dr. R.
You just need to talk some sense into your ortho's ignorant mind. Be confident and don't let someone like him decide your well being. he has to put the surgical stuff ...man you are paying so much money for your braces...is he mad because one of his doctor friends will not get a share of your money?
Good luck
Great News!!!
I heard from the surgeon's office in Costa Rica this morning. They told me that I can definitely have my surgical hooks put on down there. I will have to stay probably 5 additional days, but that's fine with me.
What a relief....I had not been myself because I was so stressed out for days. Now I can actually make a date for surgery!
I'm so happy now. Thank you all for your support!
BTW after my surgery, I will find another ortho to finish my treatment.
What a relief....I had not been myself because I was so stressed out for days. Now I can actually make a date for surgery!
I'm so happy now. Thank you all for your support!
BTW after my surgery, I will find another ortho to finish my treatment.
October 8, 2008 Lefort1(6mm impaction), BSSO, Genioplasty, Turbinectomies, Partial septoplasty, gum recontoring
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Steph-in-WI
- Posts: 95
- Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:36 pm
- Location: Wisconsin, USA
- Contact:
Wow Ozzysmom! I just read this thread---I am SO GLAD you can get the hooks put on in Costa Rica as well, BUT! I am especially glad to hear that you are going to find another ortho to finish your treatment. That kind of arrogance and manipulation by holding hostage is disgusting.
Let us know when you get your date!
Let us know when you get your date!
Braced 5-30-07 for 18-24 months
In-Ovation Uppers, Metal Lowers, TPA upper arch, Lower Lingual arch, no elastics.
100% Deep Bite, Crowding, Over Extrusion
BSSO & Genio surgery June 4th '08!
"Truth is a bully we all pretend to like." Gregory David Roberts -SHANTARAM
In-Ovation Uppers, Metal Lowers, TPA upper arch, Lower Lingual arch, no elastics.
100% Deep Bite, Crowding, Over Extrusion
BSSO & Genio surgery June 4th '08!
"Truth is a bully we all pretend to like." Gregory David Roberts -SHANTARAM