ok - now I'm a little nervous. my dentist - who's well respected in the trade and is always going around giving talks and such - convinced me to go with "adult orthodontics" to fix some minor crowding and a situation where my upper-front teeth are banging on the lower teeth (and actually chipped a piece off a lower tooth)...
I immediately did some research and assumed he was refering to Invisalign. In a follow-up conversation he told me that he wasn't using Invisalign in his practice, but was using a similar product that was less expensive than invisalign - called "red white and blue". He said he actually used them himself a little while ago with great success.
There are some key differences between Invisalign and Ormco (also called AOA/Pro) Red White and Blue. The AOA people use less trays, but you wear them for 6 weeks instead of 2 - and you go see the practitioner for every new tray. They also seem to only provide 3 trays at a time to the dentist / ortho.
I got my first trays yesterday, and I'm not totally thrilled so far. The top tray didn't fit at all until the dentist made little cuts in the top on the inside and outside edge to give it a little "play"... those cuts introduced some sharp edges that my mouth doesn't like very much. Also, the top tray doesn't sit right up against the roof of my mouth, and some severe lisping is the result - not sure if I will adjust to this over time or not, as others have indicated.
Anyone else have Red White and Blue?
For those using Invisalign, did you ever have to make any cuts into a tray to get it to go on? how "snug" does the tray sit against the top of your mouth?
"New kid on the block"
Moderator: bbsadmin
An update after 2 weeks with trays from the new kid on the block (Ormco Red White and Blue)
Much more comfortable with my decision after 2 weeks than I was after 1 day... The trays have settled in and the lisping has (mostly) subsided. Still have trouble with "dge" sounds like "dodge"...
The little cuts the dentist made to give the top tray some flexibility to put on and take off still offer some pointy edges, but my mouth adapted very well after a few days.
Again, I will wear this aligner for 6 weeks, and frankly I'm happy about that. I assume with fewer trays each tray needs to move the teeth further than the Invisalign equivalent, but I can tell you that these trays are still moving teeth after 2 full weeks of wear - so having them for 6 weeks makes sense to me. I also feel that the extra time is allowing the teeth time to get properly into position before the next move - which may cut down on some of the problems many on this board have cited with Invisalign trays fitting less and less well as each new tray is introcuded?
Anyway - not sure this is relevant to anyone out there, but I wanted to update my last post (that was pretty negative)...
Much more comfortable with my decision after 2 weeks than I was after 1 day... The trays have settled in and the lisping has (mostly) subsided. Still have trouble with "dge" sounds like "dodge"...
The little cuts the dentist made to give the top tray some flexibility to put on and take off still offer some pointy edges, but my mouth adapted very well after a few days.
Again, I will wear this aligner for 6 weeks, and frankly I'm happy about that. I assume with fewer trays each tray needs to move the teeth further than the Invisalign equivalent, but I can tell you that these trays are still moving teeth after 2 full weeks of wear - so having them for 6 weeks makes sense to me. I also feel that the extra time is allowing the teeth time to get properly into position before the next move - which may cut down on some of the problems many on this board have cited with Invisalign trays fitting less and less well as each new tray is introcuded?
Anyway - not sure this is relevant to anyone out there, but I wanted to update my last post (that was pretty negative)...
I saw this same post on another invisalign forum, before I chose invisalign. I did some research and consultation with different ortho's and asked about all options - include RW&B. I ended up with Invisalign because all the doctors said I have a perfect case for Invisalign and they were not comfortable with me going with RW&Blue. Plus - I cant see myself wearing the same tray for 6 weeks. I gross out on wearing the same one for 3 weeks. Even though I do clean them everyday in Efferdent.
regarding your comment about wearing them for 6 weeks... I personally haven't had any problems with that issue. I think I go a little overboard keeping them clean, but my routine is to soak them in a bath of Clorox and water (a little bleach with a lot of water, recommended on another board) in the am while I'm showering, and using the "Retainer Brite" doodads while I'm eating dinner. I brush them after each of their "baths" and again when I go to bed.nvrsaynvr wrote:I saw this same post on another invisalign forum, before I chose invisalign. I did some research and consultation with different ortho's and asked about all options - include RW&B. I ended up with Invisalign because all the doctors said I have a perfect case for Invisalign and they were not comfortable with me going with RW&Blue. Plus - I cant see myself wearing the same tray for 6 weeks. I gross out on wearing the same one for 3 weeks. Even though I do clean them everyday in Efferdent.
And I have been erring on the side of wearing the aligners all the time - even when drinking diet sodas and such, so they do have a bit of a brown tint prior to cleaning, but come out good as new every day.
Also curious to hear what your practitioner had to say about the difference between RW&B and Invisalign that made him recommend the latter.
I can report that I have no "speedbumps" - that may be becuase my relatively simple correction didn't require them? or it may be that RW&B doesn't do that...
My ortho said the RWB was not recommended on my teeth because my lower teeth were severe enough that RWB might not correct my teeth. BUT my lower teeth aren't too severe, where he could recommend wearing invisalign.
He said RWB is for slight movement cases, as invisalign is for slight to moderate cases and metal is for moderate/severe cases.
Such as my hubby... he couldnt get RWB or invisalign and had to go with metal braces because of one of upper tooth had to be turned and my ortho didnt feel confident to take the chance with invisalign and also his bite needed corrected and he didnt want to put invisalign and metal braces afterwards, so he told my husband that he had to go with metal all the way. (which my hubby did)
I hope this makes sense.
He said RWB is for slight movement cases, as invisalign is for slight to moderate cases and metal is for moderate/severe cases.
Such as my hubby... he couldnt get RWB or invisalign and had to go with metal braces because of one of upper tooth had to be turned and my ortho didnt feel confident to take the chance with invisalign and also his bite needed corrected and he didnt want to put invisalign and metal braces afterwards, so he told my husband that he had to go with metal all the way. (which my hubby did)
I hope this makes sense.
red white and blue and invisalign/orthoclear are similar in concept only.
i have had both.
with invisalign very detailed specail impressions are taken, then a cat scan is done of the mold and using cad cam software ( high tech stuff) a computer model of your teeth is created. then the teeth are slowly moved into possition by computer, and specail, very thin clear aligners are made according to specific data points.
with RWB, normal impressions are taken, a mold is made, then the dr. or the llab he sends the molds to removes individual teeth from that mold and places them in a slightly differnt position, and makes a esseix type retainer of the now changed mold which is worn for 4-6 weeks.
same concept but very different execution. rwb is best for very simple cases, invisalign can tackle somewhat more difficult stuff, and neither are quite as effective as traditional braces.
chris
i have had both.
with invisalign very detailed specail impressions are taken, then a cat scan is done of the mold and using cad cam software ( high tech stuff) a computer model of your teeth is created. then the teeth are slowly moved into possition by computer, and specail, very thin clear aligners are made according to specific data points.
with RWB, normal impressions are taken, a mold is made, then the dr. or the llab he sends the molds to removes individual teeth from that mold and places them in a slightly differnt position, and makes a esseix type retainer of the now changed mold which is worn for 4-6 weeks.
same concept but very different execution. rwb is best for very simple cases, invisalign can tackle somewhat more difficult stuff, and neither are quite as effective as traditional braces.
chris
http://community.webshots.com/user/cruelcanbekind
3m clarity on top changed to supertorque metal
3m victory metals bottom
estimated treatment time 16-20 months
very good info, chrisd, much appreciated...
you've had them both and now your signature line says "about to be braced"??? gracious
anyway - you are as close as I'm gonna come to finding an expert on RWB versus Invisalign... mind a couple questions?
Was invisalign a thinner plastic than RWB? or did it fit better? I'm finding (after almost 3 weeks) that I'm still having some trouble with speech - although everyone around me tells me that they don't notice... but I'm also wondering if I should be going back to my practitioner to get them to make some adjustment...
Again, I'm only 1/2-way through my first aligner set, so this may clear up, but I'm finding that I cannot touch molars right now. The bottom front teeth have moved out with this set of trays, but the top teeth haven't moved out as far, yet, so when I try to eat I'm banging front teeth - again, not sure if this should worry me or not. Anyone else out there have this issue (no matter Invisalign / OrthoClear / RWB)?
Finally - do you have any opinion on RWB vs Invisalign in terms of "wearability" or results?
you've had them both and now your signature line says "about to be braced"??? gracious
anyway - you are as close as I'm gonna come to finding an expert on RWB versus Invisalign... mind a couple questions?
Was invisalign a thinner plastic than RWB? or did it fit better? I'm finding (after almost 3 weeks) that I'm still having some trouble with speech - although everyone around me tells me that they don't notice... but I'm also wondering if I should be going back to my practitioner to get them to make some adjustment...
Again, I'm only 1/2-way through my first aligner set, so this may clear up, but I'm finding that I cannot touch molars right now. The bottom front teeth have moved out with this set of trays, but the top teeth haven't moved out as far, yet, so when I try to eat I'm banging front teeth - again, not sure if this should worry me or not. Anyone else out there have this issue (no matter Invisalign / OrthoClear / RWB)?
Finally - do you have any opinion on RWB vs Invisalign in terms of "wearability" or results?
yup i have had it all. lol!! or cry outloud? not sure which?
invisalign is a much thinner plastic than RWB, though i understand that invisalign does come in different thicknesses for certain cases.
i also felt that they did fit a better. i believe that is a result of those unique impresssions and computer modeling that invisalign requires. invisalign also only covers the teeth, it goes right up to the edge but does not cover any of the gums, which i think made speaking easier. that said everyone has different abilities to speak clearly with a bunch of metal and plastic shoved in their mouths
with both however as the teeth move and the aligner gets a bit loser speaking can get difficult again until the new tight alinger
as far as not touching molars thatis called a posterior open bite and unfortunatally is a common side effect of invisalign, RWB and essix retainers all of which cover the occlusal surface of teeth and kind of act to push them into the gums. it is usually minor and can go away after treatment. that is why hawley/metal type retainers are used.
with regards to your fron teeth banging. that is not a good thing as it can cause wear and root damage in the long term , but if it is going to be corrected in a few aligners down the line it is probably not a big deal.
as far as results. well results may vary, but invisalign is a more sopjistacted ortho appliance and can achieve more complex tooth movements than RWB, but it is also far more expensive. but if you are just doing some relativly minor tooth movement then rwb may be all you need.
good luck i hopw i answered your questions
chris
invisalign is a much thinner plastic than RWB, though i understand that invisalign does come in different thicknesses for certain cases.
i also felt that they did fit a better. i believe that is a result of those unique impresssions and computer modeling that invisalign requires. invisalign also only covers the teeth, it goes right up to the edge but does not cover any of the gums, which i think made speaking easier. that said everyone has different abilities to speak clearly with a bunch of metal and plastic shoved in their mouths
with both however as the teeth move and the aligner gets a bit loser speaking can get difficult again until the new tight alinger
as far as not touching molars thatis called a posterior open bite and unfortunatally is a common side effect of invisalign, RWB and essix retainers all of which cover the occlusal surface of teeth and kind of act to push them into the gums. it is usually minor and can go away after treatment. that is why hawley/metal type retainers are used.
with regards to your fron teeth banging. that is not a good thing as it can cause wear and root damage in the long term , but if it is going to be corrected in a few aligners down the line it is probably not a big deal.
as far as results. well results may vary, but invisalign is a more sopjistacted ortho appliance and can achieve more complex tooth movements than RWB, but it is also far more expensive. but if you are just doing some relativly minor tooth movement then rwb may be all you need.
good luck i hopw i answered your questions
chris
http://community.webshots.com/user/cruelcanbekind
3m clarity on top changed to supertorque metal
3m victory metals bottom
estimated treatment time 16-20 months
thanks very much for the info, chrisd. you confirmed much of what I had suspected, but hadn't been able to confirm.
It does indeed look like RWB is a "lower-tech" approach. The alligners I have are almost identical to the retainers I got after I had braces in my teens. They do in fact cover part of the gums, everwhere except way in the back on the last molars. This isn't that big of a deal, for the most part, accept on the roof of my mouth where the tray impacts my ability to put my tongue where it needs to be to say "sh" sounds and "dge" sounds without sounding like I have a mouth full of cotton! even after 3 weeks...
but all-in-all I'm comfortable with the treatment so far. just anxious to move to the next set of alligners. 6 weeks seems like an eternity right now!
It does indeed look like RWB is a "lower-tech" approach. The alligners I have are almost identical to the retainers I got after I had braces in my teens. They do in fact cover part of the gums, everwhere except way in the back on the last molars. This isn't that big of a deal, for the most part, accept on the roof of my mouth where the tray impacts my ability to put my tongue where it needs to be to say "sh" sounds and "dge" sounds without sounding like I have a mouth full of cotton! even after 3 weeks...
but all-in-all I'm comfortable with the treatment so far. just anxious to move to the next set of alligners. 6 weeks seems like an eternity right now!
hang in there, speaking will eventually get better as your tongue gets used to things. i did notice with both invislaign and rwb that as the tray got loser at the end just before switching my speaking got a little bit worse again.
you can always try reading aloud or even singing in the car to help speed things up.
chris
you can always try reading aloud or even singing in the car to help speed things up.
chris
http://community.webshots.com/user/cruelcanbekind
3m clarity on top changed to supertorque metal
3m victory metals bottom
estimated treatment time 16-20 months
I've come to realize over the past week or so that my aligners actually shrink (enough to notice) when they get cold...
This first occured to me last week when I left them in the car (30 degrees outside) for about 90 minutes while I had dinner in a restaurant with business colleagues... When I put them back on the top tray didn't fit well at all - and hurt like the 1st time I put them on. I pannicked thinking that a 90 minute meal could result in that much movement of the teeth...
But after a couple days of being more aware of the situation, I'm finding that even walking outside in the cold for more than a couple mins results in a similar situation.
I can only conclude that the trays are shrinking with the cold (which makes sense, I guess) - anyone else notice this, or is this another "for RWB users only" feature!
This first occured to me last week when I left them in the car (30 degrees outside) for about 90 minutes while I had dinner in a restaurant with business colleagues... When I put them back on the top tray didn't fit well at all - and hurt like the 1st time I put them on. I pannicked thinking that a 90 minute meal could result in that much movement of the teeth...
But after a couple days of being more aware of the situation, I'm finding that even walking outside in the cold for more than a couple mins results in a similar situation.
I can only conclude that the trays are shrinking with the cold (which makes sense, I guess) - anyone else notice this, or is this another "for RWB users only" feature!
Thought I'd continue to give progress updates to anyone out there that is interested in the ARMCO / AOA / Red White & Blue alternative.
I'm a week into my second set of aligners now (after wearing the 1st set for exactly 6 weeks). This set of trays popped on without much issue and no need to "loosen them up" as with the first top aligner (see my previous post on this thread). There was a significant amount of movement in the 1st 2 days with these trays, seemingly all over the place. I was in some serious discomfort for about 48 hours. Made the mistake of taking the new alligners off for an hour at dinner about 5 hours after first putting them on. They came off without issue but when I put them back on I felt like someone had kicked out all of my front teeth! I think I'll plan on leaving them on overnight on the next set to see if that makes a difference...
other than that, not much to report. I'm still banging front teeth when I bite down without the trays on, and my dentist seemed mildly alarmed at this. He said he was going to communicate that to the lab and maybe they would want to make some alteration in the next set of aligners as a result... we'll see, I guess. He also did some very minor stripping on 2 of my top teeth - took about 10 seconds per tooth. No pain at all, which actually surprised me in spite of everyone reporting no pain on this board.
I am a bit surprised at how comfortable I am with the whole treatment at this point. I've adjusted to the routine of dealing with the trays very well, and my speech is probably back to around 95% - and I think I'm the only person that notices the last 5% frankly.
I'm a week into my second set of aligners now (after wearing the 1st set for exactly 6 weeks). This set of trays popped on without much issue and no need to "loosen them up" as with the first top aligner (see my previous post on this thread). There was a significant amount of movement in the 1st 2 days with these trays, seemingly all over the place. I was in some serious discomfort for about 48 hours. Made the mistake of taking the new alligners off for an hour at dinner about 5 hours after first putting them on. They came off without issue but when I put them back on I felt like someone had kicked out all of my front teeth! I think I'll plan on leaving them on overnight on the next set to see if that makes a difference...
other than that, not much to report. I'm still banging front teeth when I bite down without the trays on, and my dentist seemed mildly alarmed at this. He said he was going to communicate that to the lab and maybe they would want to make some alteration in the next set of aligners as a result... we'll see, I guess. He also did some very minor stripping on 2 of my top teeth - took about 10 seconds per tooth. No pain at all, which actually surprised me in spite of everyone reporting no pain on this board.
I am a bit surprised at how comfortable I am with the whole treatment at this point. I've adjusted to the routine of dealing with the trays very well, and my speech is probably back to around 95% - and I think I'm the only person that notices the last 5% frankly.
Greetings,
I've enjoyed your insight into RWB as I am going to be going through the same treatment and would really appreciate it if you could keep me updated as to your progress either through the public forum or just by PM'ing me. My impressions are done and I am awaiting the trays.
I had braces as a child and just recently got serious about correcting my adult relapse. I had a standard spring aligner for my uppers that did not do very much, so the RWB is my second attempt with a different orthodontist. They are for upper and lower whereas my spring aligner was just for the upper. The upper and lower RWB is actually going to cost less than the single upper spring aligner that didn't work. Go figure.
I am sure I will have some speech issues but I would not think they would be as severe as what I had with the spring aligner. The plastic portion covered the entire roof of my mouth so it made things difficult from time-to-time and it was much more visible. My advice is to just be yourself and if you sound a little funny, so be it! I got a few laughs from co-workers but they meant no harm. Just go with the flow. It will be over before you know it.
I think it takes a lot of courage to do something like this as an adult and most of the people who may laugh are probably not the type to be able to handle the giggling or stares that may come. I would wager a bet that many of them would love to have the treatment themselves. Consider yourself to be a confident individual.
Again, thanks for you consideration in keeping me/us up to date.
Mark
Columbia, Missouri
I've enjoyed your insight into RWB as I am going to be going through the same treatment and would really appreciate it if you could keep me updated as to your progress either through the public forum or just by PM'ing me. My impressions are done and I am awaiting the trays.
I had braces as a child and just recently got serious about correcting my adult relapse. I had a standard spring aligner for my uppers that did not do very much, so the RWB is my second attempt with a different orthodontist. They are for upper and lower whereas my spring aligner was just for the upper. The upper and lower RWB is actually going to cost less than the single upper spring aligner that didn't work. Go figure.
I am sure I will have some speech issues but I would not think they would be as severe as what I had with the spring aligner. The plastic portion covered the entire roof of my mouth so it made things difficult from time-to-time and it was much more visible. My advice is to just be yourself and if you sound a little funny, so be it! I got a few laughs from co-workers but they meant no harm. Just go with the flow. It will be over before you know it.
I think it takes a lot of courage to do something like this as an adult and most of the people who may laugh are probably not the type to be able to handle the giggling or stares that may come. I would wager a bet that many of them would love to have the treatment themselves. Consider yourself to be a confident individual.
Again, thanks for you consideration in keeping me/us up to date.
Mark
Columbia, Missouri
Greetings,
I've enjoyed your insight into RWB as I am going to be going through the same treatment and would really appreciate it if you could keep me updated as to your progress either through the public forum or just by PM'ing me. My impressions are done and I am awaiting the trays.
I had braces as a child and just recently got serious about correcting my adult relapse. I had a standard spring aligner for my uppers that did not do very much, so the RWB is my second attempt with a different orthodontist. They are for upper and lower whereas my spring aligner was just for the upper. The upper and lower RWB is actually going to cost less than the single upper spring aligner that didn't work. Go figure.
I am sure I will have some speech issues but I would not think they would be as severe as what I had with the spring aligner. The plastic portion covered the entire roof of my mouth so it made things difficult from time-to-time and it was much more visible. My advice is to just be yourself and if you sound a little funny, so be it! I got a few laughs from co-workers but they meant no harm. Just go with the flow. It will be over before you know it.
I think it takes a lot of courage to do something like this as an adult and most of the people who may laugh are probably not the type to be able to handle the giggling or stares that may come. I would wager a bet that many of them would love to have the treatment themselves. Consider yourself to be a confident individual.
Again, thanks for you consideration in keeping me/us up to date.
Mark
Columbia, Missouri
I've enjoyed your insight into RWB as I am going to be going through the same treatment and would really appreciate it if you could keep me updated as to your progress either through the public forum or just by PM'ing me. My impressions are done and I am awaiting the trays.
I had braces as a child and just recently got serious about correcting my adult relapse. I had a standard spring aligner for my uppers that did not do very much, so the RWB is my second attempt with a different orthodontist. They are for upper and lower whereas my spring aligner was just for the upper. The upper and lower RWB is actually going to cost less than the single upper spring aligner that didn't work. Go figure.
I am sure I will have some speech issues but I would not think they would be as severe as what I had with the spring aligner. The plastic portion covered the entire roof of my mouth so it made things difficult from time-to-time and it was much more visible. My advice is to just be yourself and if you sound a little funny, so be it! I got a few laughs from co-workers but they meant no harm. Just go with the flow. It will be over before you know it.
I think it takes a lot of courage to do something like this as an adult and most of the people who may laugh are probably not the type to be able to handle the giggling or stares that may come. I would wager a bet that many of them would love to have the treatment themselves. Consider yourself to be a confident individual.
Again, thanks for you consideration in keeping me/us up to date.
Mark
Columbia, Missouri
Mark -
Good to hear from you! I was beginning to think that (other than chrisd mentioning he had the RWB treatment at one point in the past) I was the only person in the world that a) is a forum-hound, and b) has a dental professional that uses RWB...
My case if similar to yours in that I had braces in my teens. I probably wouldn't have ever thought of correcting my crowding issues - and didn't until I chipped a front tooth (while crunching a popcorn kernel
).
My dentist told me that he could fix the chip, but that it might very well re-occur at some point unless we got my teeth fixed up. When he first suggested "adult orthodontics" I actually laughed... but after he explained that he was talking about a treatment that didn't require railroad ties, I decided to go ahead.
I can certainly say this - the Invisalign / RWB / Orthoclear option certainly opens up a market of adults that would likely NEVER consider orthodontics, if I'm any indication of the way people think.
The other result of my treatment is that I'm suddently more interested in taking care of my teeth properly. I don't want to invest $4000 in something without 1) being able to show off a first-class smile, and 2) being able to keep that smile for many years to come. I think that's a very good side-effect of the treatment.
Anyway, good to hear that I'm not alone on the board! I look forward to exchanging impressions and experiences.
Good to hear from you! I was beginning to think that (other than chrisd mentioning he had the RWB treatment at one point in the past) I was the only person in the world that a) is a forum-hound, and b) has a dental professional that uses RWB...
My case if similar to yours in that I had braces in my teens. I probably wouldn't have ever thought of correcting my crowding issues - and didn't until I chipped a front tooth (while crunching a popcorn kernel
).My dentist told me that he could fix the chip, but that it might very well re-occur at some point unless we got my teeth fixed up. When he first suggested "adult orthodontics" I actually laughed... but after he explained that he was talking about a treatment that didn't require railroad ties, I decided to go ahead.
I can certainly say this - the Invisalign / RWB / Orthoclear option certainly opens up a market of adults that would likely NEVER consider orthodontics, if I'm any indication of the way people think.
The other result of my treatment is that I'm suddently more interested in taking care of my teeth properly. I don't want to invest $4000 in something without 1) being able to show off a first-class smile, and 2) being able to keep that smile for many years to come. I think that's a very good side-effect of the treatment.
Anyway, good to hear that I'm not alone on the board! I look forward to exchanging impressions and experiences.