link between posture and jaws?

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#1 Post by **suetemi** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:15 pm

An earlier thread on mouthbreathing got me thinking about the role of posture in jaw development. I wonder if there is a link. As a child and teenager my posture wasn't the greatest -- my back/shoulders tended to be a bit rounded or slouched which resulted in my head being tilted up in such a way as to make my mouth hang open. I wonder if this had anything to do with my misaligned jaw development and why I might have turned into a mouth breather at some point.

Anyway, as an adult my posture's improved a lot since those days and when I straighten my back, I notice how it makes my head tilt down/chin tuck in and my mouth closes. Anyone know of studies on this? If thumbsucking and thrusting habits can affect the way the jaws develop, posture has also got to be a legitimate factor, no?

#2 Post by **Arvensis** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:55 pm

I think it's the other way around, IE mouth breathing/jaw causes posture, not posture causing jaw issues. I've noticed that it's easier for me to stand up straight now after surgery than it was before, and my back/shoulder/neck issues are working themselves out. I've started doing yoga/pilates again to strengthen up everything now that it CAN go back where it's supposed to.

#3 Post by **suetemi** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:58 pm

Arvensis , looks like you're right. I did some digging just now and this came up:

Mouth Breathing Affects the Teeth, Jaw and Posture
We typically use the jaw and tongue for eating, swallowing and speaking. When used for breathing, we must make postural adjustments. Chronic mouth breathers tend to bring their head forward in front of their shoulders and tilted back to maintain an open airway. Try it yourself, while letting your tongue relax.

Notice that this posture pulls the jaw down and back. It also changes the position of the tongue. The tongue is pulled down so that it no longer produces any force against the upper arch of the teeth. Without this force, the developing upper jaw does not fully grow and the nasal cavity becomes constricted. Since the upper jaw also happens to be the lower part of the nasal cavity, you can see how one affects the other, What started out to be a problem with your nose also becomes a problem with your bite.

http://www.memphistmj.com/MouthBreathing.html#C

#4 Post by **fromjersey** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:43 am

Suetemi--yes, looks like some vicious circles going on here. Even if mouth breathing pushes head forward and affects our back posture, then that position ends up constricting nose--more mouth breathing. Just a vicious circle that needs to be broken.
When I went to a physical therapist about my bad back, I was told about the link between receding jaw and bad posture. She brought up something else, said sometimes our clavicles (shoulder blades) are not level, but point downward toward center of chest. The more we dig into this, the more parts of the body get affected.
I found something online by an orthodontist Dr. J. Bruce Johnson, under Posture Analysis. He wrote:

"As we are becoming increasingly aware, everything is connected. Jaw Posture (your bite) affects head posture. Head posture affets neck posture. Neck posture affects shoulder and back posture. Guess where many back problems start?"
Helen

#5 Post by **Arvensis** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:24 pm

I can tell 100% that something in my posture has changed post-op; I walk differently, run differently, yoga feels different, I could go on.

You should also know that I'm hyper aware of posture/back issues/etc, as that was apparently (as in, i know this now, but had no idea) where most of my issues showed up pre-op. I've been to see (in the last 10 years) three chiropractors, 4 massage therapists, a rolfer, two physical therapists, and one sports med doctor and nothing in all that time and money solved what one jaw surgery did.

#6 Post by **suetemi** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:56 pm

Helen -- did physical therapy work at all for you? I've been thinking of looking into it. I read there's something called postural re-education which I was hoping could re-train my muscles/spine into a healthier, normal posture.

Arvensis -- I'm so glad to hear the positive effects that surgery had on your posture. For many years my mom gave me so much grief over my bad posture. When she found out about the mouth breathing thing she felt really bad, I think, knowing that it's something I couldn't really help.

For the past two days I've been attempting to force myself to act like a nose breather, making a conscious effort to make my back ramrod straight and pull my head and neck back. Also I've been trying to keep my mouth closed, my tongue on the roof of my mouth, and taking deep slow breaths through my nose. So far my body has been putting up quite a fight...it takes only a second for everything to fall back into the old positions if I don't concentrate. I can't keep my mouth closed at night though -- too much lip incompetence from the open bite. I did notice that when i keep my back super-straight and pull back my head/neck, my lower jaw moves forward and my overbite is not very noticeable (the open bite on the other hand becomes more noticeable).

#7 Post by **Arvensis** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:41 pm

Suetemi:
Before trying physical therapy, if you're looking for posture help, you might check out a pilates studio or bikram yoga studio nearby. Bikram ended up being the only thing that helped stretch out my muscles and changed my posture, and that was before surgery. After, absolutely out of this world. I bring it up because I did both physical therapy and massage therapy and the combo of pilates and bikram yoga was more effective, faster, and cheaper.

#8 Post by **suetemi** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:01 pm

Arvensis wrote:Suetemi:
Before trying physical therapy, if you're looking for posture help, you might check out a pilates studio or bikram yoga studio nearby. Bikram ended up being the only thing that helped stretch out my muscles and changed my posture, and that was before surgery. After, absolutely out of this world. I bring it up because I did both physical therapy and massage therapy and the combo of pilates and bikram yoga was more effective, faster, and cheaper.

Thanks for the tip. I'm a yogi too, but have been on hiatus for nearly a year. Is there anything specific about Bikram that you felt helped you more than other kinds of yoga? I usually do hatha or vinyasa, but I'm willing to try anything, even yoga in sauna-like conditions

, to exorcise this awful mouthbreathing posture. Have never done pilates but have heard nothing but positive things about it in regards to posture improvement -- will have to look into it.

#9 Post by **Arvensis** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:50 pm

it stretched out my muscles and allowed me to work on ones that were too tight in normal yoga or pilates environments, so I strengthened those that were out of whack.

I had a bad shoulder from a rock-climbing accident that too was revived by bikram yoga; my scapula was winging quite severely and I'd been doing pt for a while, no change. That is actually why i started bikram in the first place, not b/c posture, but it fixed the shoulder and posture, and I could maintain with weekly visits for a while there. Of course braces threw a wrench in it all;) but post op the few times I've done bikram since everything's really lined up nice.

#10 Post by **Mimmy** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:03 am

Wow, this is incredibly interesting and expains a lot! I have terrible posture with rounded shoulders and my head tilting forward - I also can't close my mouth at night. Jaw surgery was mentioned a few years ago and I always thought it was just a cosmetic thing....now I know that she said it for a reason!

My boyfriend tried to sort out my posture last night by holding me upright while I was sitting on his lap and I found that it felt so un-natural and hurt my neck a bit...was this just because i'm not used to it?

#11 Post by **suetemi** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:32 am

Mimmy,

do you breath through your mouth during the day when you're standing up or just during sleep? Try keeping your tongue on the roof of your mouth and pulling your neck back as if you're standing with your back against a wall and trying to touch your neck to it. This opened up my airway a bit and took a lot of tension off my shoulders.

I'm trying to re-adust my posture and the first couple of days of 24-hour a day effort was uncomfortable and the back of my neck felt so tight and strange. I'm on day 3 and it's becoming less and less tight but by no means does it feel natural. Considering that my body has been used to one posture for almost all of my life and the bones have grown in such a way to accommodate that posture, I'm not sure if it's possible to change it completely. But hopefully the muscles can be re-trained. Last night I forced myself (with perseverance and a piece of tape on the lips) to sleep with my mouth closed for what was probably the first time since I was a toddler, and wow, I feel so great this morning.

#12 Post by **Mimmy** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:56 am

I do actually breathe through my mouth during the day aswell. I always thought it was purely because of my overjet and the fact that it's really difficult to close my mouth and keep it closed but finding out that the problem stems back years and is due to growth also makes a lot of sense.

What you said about the airways is uncanny! When I catch myself slumping and make an effort to sit up straight, I always find it much easier to breathe in general.

I am also hoping that the muscles can be re-trained. I think that the reason they hurt is because i'm forcing them into positions that they're not used to - like you are too! I tried to sleep with my mouth closed, which is easy when my lips are dry because they just stick together (!) but as soon as there's the slightest hint of drool it's impossible! Might have to try the tape thing!

#13 Post by **Arvensis** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:24 am

Mimmy wrote:My boyfriend tried to sort out my posture last night by holding me upright while I was sitting on his lap and I found that it felt so un-natural and hurt my neck a bit...was this just because i'm not used to it?

My husband used to do this to me all. the. time. before op. I just couldn't hold my shoulders back or sit straight like I was "supposed to" - it felt uncomfortable, it ached, I couldn't sustain it.

Now I'm sitting straight backed, with my shoulders back, while typing this and it feels better than slouching. So who knows, but I can now stand "straight" and it feels comfortable. so I don't think it's being used to it or not, I think it's flat out muscles and bone relation to one another being better now since surgery.

Also keep in mind that there is more than just muscles at work. Fascia tissue is like syran wrap and it surrounds your muscles and forces them into certain positions, and it can be too tight too. I think what made adjusting posture for me so quick after surgery was years and years of rolfing (working with that facia tissue to stretch it out and revise posture that way - unsustainable before surgery, we'll see wwhat happens when i start up again in the fall) and yoga/pilates/etc but I still catch myself slouching even though it's uncomfortable and have to sit back up.

#14 Post by **suetemi** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:35 am

Arvensis wrote: but I still catch myself slouching even though it's uncomfortable and have to sit back up.

Ha, that reminds me of phantom limb sensation, but with posture instead. It's like your body's memory trying to relapse into what it was

#15 Post by **fromjersey** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:40 am

Suetemi: I didn't see physical therapist for my posture but did for so-called herniated disc lumbar region. Exercises did help that. As for my posture, way back in 1940's in high school, those of us with bad postures (in New Jersey) were put into a "correctives" class where our Physical Ed. teacher had us do exercises. Hold our back to the floor. Breathing exercises. (My mouth was probably hanging open throughout). It didn't help. Nobody noticed my badly receding lower jaw and nothing was done to correct it. So bad posture continued. From what I have read, receding jaw can affect our entire spine, all the way down.

So all I have had done is sliding genioplasty and it will be interesting to see if my posture gets affected--now that I just hit my 80th birthday!
Helen