Acceptable/desirable overjet?

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dentalguy
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Acceptable/desirable overjet?

#1 Post by dentalguy »

This may seem a bit of a strange desire but as I have a class III malocclusion, with my incisors meeting edge to edge, I’d actually prefer to have something of an overjet. My reasoning is that I’d like a normal bite and the profile that comes with it and most people seem to have a slight overjet. At least that’s what I’ve picked up from paying more attention to other people’s teeth since taking an interest in the whole braces thing.

Most people appear to have an overjet of a good few millimetres – say up to five – and I’ve read that anything along these lines is fine and it’s not until you go seven mil or more that it’s considered excessive. Indeed, I’ve noticed that even for many people whose incisors would seem to have a close overlap it’s usually because the upper anterior teeth are tipped backwards; if their teeth were straightened there would still be an overjet present.

And here’s the thing, people with incisors that appear to just overlap in a way that we’re all told is a characteristic of a perfect class I occlusion often look as if they’ve got too much chin, and maybe something of a flattish face as a result. By contrast most people that have something of a mild overjet – and that appears to be the majority of people – look great and have a well proportioned mouth and chin. Is it just the way I’m looking at things – or my imagination – that’s leading me to believe most have overjets? That is, an overjet in excess of the type that is obviously necessary to ensure your front teeth overlap in a class I occlusion and don’t meet edge to edge.

I thought at first it was maybe because I live in Ireland and that possibly everyone here has misaligned teeth. :wink: However, since my new found interest in observing other people’s teeth, I’ve been over in England and the same situation prevails there too. Most people have overjets, it seems. Now admittedly these aren’t exactly the two places that many Americans would look to as beacons of beautiful dentition – think the Simpsons Halloween episode involving the Big Book of British Smiles – but are mild overjets the norm everywhere and therefore the actual definition of a normal bite. And surely a normal bite is what all of us snaggle toothed peeps are aiming for?!!

UGHBRACES
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#2 Post by UGHBRACES »

I always thought your upper front teeth are supposed to slightly vertically overlap the lower front, with the bottom just touching the back of the upper fronts.

classII
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#3 Post by classII »

They have to meet at some point (bottom top incisors - like scissors). I believe the acceptable range is 0mm to 3mm max. Beyond that you get into a Class II situation where the top incisors start tipping backwards into the mouth.

Say:

0mm || - picture that slightly leaning into each other

3mm |\ - picture them touching at the top

Class II |/ - picture the top inscisors tipping backwards

Without surgery you can tip the bottom incisors forward slightly to meet the tops. But they must meet at some point otherwises there's nothing preventing them from becoming class II.

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Mimmy
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#4 Post by Mimmy »

A normal bite will not meet edge to edge, rather more like this;

/
¦

However, I started with a 13mm overject and am now down to 8mm and I am so happy with how they look, even though they're not typically 'perfect' yet. :D
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dentalguy
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#5 Post by dentalguy »

Class II, I'm not trying to be obtuse or anything but I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Surely there are plenty of people with a class II malocclusion with upper incisors that tip forwards and away from their lower incisors - Mimmy (If you don't mind me using you as an example :) ) is a case in point. Her upper incisors leaned forward and yet she had a 13mm overjet.

I may have this the wrong way round but don't class II malocclusions fall into two divisions: the first is where the upper incisors tip forward; the second where they tip back. So surely the bites in the first division demonstrate that upper teeth won't necessarily lean backwards if unsupported.

The other thing too is why would they suddenly start tipping backwards at overjets of above 3mm? Anything above 0 offers no support to the upper anterior teeth so why wouldn't they start tipping at a 1, 2 or 3mm gap. Then there's the whole thing that people don't walk around with their teeth clenched so how much of an opportunity do the two arches ever have of supporting each other.

I have to say I'm still unsure about all this. Firstly, I'm convinced I've seen people with considerable overjets who have, it appears, perfectly straight upper teeth - in fact the vet we took the dog to the other day was like this... considerable overjet but perfect upper teeth and her bottom teeth seemed to be straight and, if anything, leaned back into her mouth. (I've really got to stop observing everyone I meet now :oops: ) The second thing is that I really can't shake my suspicion that there are loads of people with mild overjets - so many that they might actually be the majority. It just so often looks this way when I catch glimpses of people's teeth!! :?

UGHBRACES
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#6 Post by UGHBRACES »

How can you tell if somebody has a mild overjet?

Unless they had a highly moderate-severe overjet, i'd have to see a person literally show me with their jaw clenched together to see how much of an overjet is there.
Either way, ideally your lowers should meet with the backside of your uppers.

classII
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#7 Post by classII »

dentalguy, you are absolutely right :oops: I was concentrating on my drawings and forgot about that. Yes, overjet with absolutely straight normal teeth, quintessential "buck teeth". Still the incisors should fit like scissors (hence the name 8) ) they're used for cutting. Call it 1mm to 3mm is "nomral". All cases of course are different and also depending on size of teeth etc, you can go over. But that's the range that orthodontics would try to achieve whether surgery, extractions or camouflage. Honestly I don't think anyone wants to go for a look of having an overjet. :P people even have veneers to reduce the overjet if they don't do braces. As mentioned above you'd have to see people clenching in order to note that they have an overjet. Perhaps you're thinking of where people have their top fronts flared forward instead when they are smiling. It can look like an overjet but there is still contact at the back with the bottoms.

dentalguy
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#8 Post by dentalguy »

Ok, I've just returned from a weekend at a huge public event – a tallships festival in Belfast. So given my new hobby of teeth spotting I had ample opportunity to look at the various bites people seem to have. And again, as I'd been saying in previous posts, the vast majority of people appeared to have had enough of an overjet when speaking to make me think they could only have likewise even if their teeth were clenched. Almost everyone's lower incisors appeared to be set back behind their upper incisors in such a way that they could only have had an overjet.

Interestingly, as well as a very very small number of people with underbites, there was also a category of people whose lower incisors seemed to be just behind and only just overlapped by the upper front teeth – the supposed perfect anterior occlusion, if you like. However, of all the teeth I noticed this group too were in a minority and more importantly they just didn't look good. All seemed to have somewhat excessive chins.

So now I'm really not sure. People just do seem to look as if they mostly have mild overjets. More's the point, if it is the case, as it's been argued here, that the normal bite involves anterior teeth touching when they overlap, why then is there a certain category of people whose lower jaw looks too forward despite having seemingly straight upper incisors that sit in front of their lowers? They seem to have this 'perfect' bite and yet don't look good. The majority who aren't as 'chinny' as the people in this group can only have more of an overjet between the two sets of anterior teeth.

Furthermore, I've come across a website with pics of people that had huge overjets and have had these 'corrected' without surgery to still excessive but not as great overjets. Most of these people – who might like Mimmy have went down from 13mm to 8mm – actually look to now have very good facial profiles; yet they're miles from this 'accepted' perfect bite. So much so that if you were to surgically make up the still considerable shortfall in the lower jaw they would probably look awful. But given they've got so close to a good facial appearance with merely a reduction to a less excessive, but still class II occlusion, leads me back to my suspicion that the normal bite involves a mild overjet.

Indeed, I've read the posts of someone who I think is an orthodontist on this board that confirm that it's not good practice to aim for zero mms of overjet; everyone should have a few mms for functional reasons.

Oh, and don't incisors and scissors just share the same latin root, going back to cut, and it's not that the former takes its meaning from the latter in referring to two edges overlapping and cutting. I mean chisel also apparently goes back to the latin for 'cut' and yet there's only one sharp edge involved there.

Finally, sorry about the long and what I hope doesn't come across as too argumentative post. It's just that I really am confused by this feature of the teeth and still don't know what to think! :?

UGHBRACES
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#9 Post by UGHBRACES »

This girl has the ideal bite and is definitely not "chinny".

Image

DrJasonKTam
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#10 Post by DrJasonKTam »

Proper overjet should not be "end on".

With the proper ratio of widths between the upper and lower teeth, proper interdigitation of posterior teeth, and proper angulation of incisors, the overjet should naturally be a positive value up to about 3mm.

That being said, there are certainly many acceptable aesthetic variations from this orthodontic ideal.
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dentalguy
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#11 Post by dentalguy »

Yeah, I've obviously been mistaken here. I actually looked at a few pics that people had posted up on flickr of their teeth - as well as having a read of a few orthodontic books - and to my surprise all I could see was that people's teeth do meet quite closely at the front.

I think what may have thrown me is the fact that as someone's mouth opens the lower teeth fall backwards in a posterior direction from the upper incisors due the jaw's hinge-like movement.

However, an orthodontic book I've been flicking through states that an average overjet of 2mm exists - didn't say if this was a mean from just the population with 'normal' bites or everyone.

But surely this means that it's not normal for the upper and lower incisors to make contact when you clench your teeth.

As for someone that looks sort of 'chinny' despite presumably having a bite other than a class III, Noel Gallagher (English popstar if you're from across the Pond) comes to mind. However, I'm sort of wrong when I say 'chinny' in this case - he looks as if his mouth is too far forward (in reality he apparently has a weak chin). Anyway, it's dawned on me that the reason for my misperception here is a sort of visual illusion; his weak cheek bones and mid-face, in edition to the puffy lower lip, might give the impression of an excessive lower jaw at first glance.

Susy
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#12 Post by Susy »

I'm finding this topic rather curious. I have a overjet slighty under the 3 mm mark, with open bite at front , and my ortho told me that for a perfect occlusion I would need elective surgery for reversing my vertical growth pattern. So I guess isn't so much about the measurement it self.

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