Bicuspid extraction experiences

[beccak]

to all there..i didnt dig this up.

i constantly do research to deal with my situation..because i still have a few problems.
when i find articles about bicuspid extraction..it definately makes me want to help and warn people.

please know..i am honestly telling you the truth.
you may be getting by...but you probably have no clue what your health or appearance should be like.

dr hang sees tons of people just like me...i am far from the only one..thankfully a dentist referred me to him...
i was desperate for help..
and was in california to see an oral surgeon who could not help me.
i got back online to research and found josh bernsteins..site..you should look him up.
i was praying..on my knees..i knew i had to do something..sleep apnea..worse..extreme problems with tongue fitting in palate...and the joint arthritis..to which i had no clue i had. i also looked horrible.! and had issues with this all my life. i can tell you..that as soon as dr hang opened up the spaces..i looked better and better.
(this was not the reason i consulted him). obviously there were worse things going on. i can say that after he opened the spaces..i felt better about my appearance than all my life..and this was after the initial surgery..when joints still fallen back in face. despite how i looked..i felt so much better of myself..that i actually met my husband at age 44..before i even had the 2nd surgery. i can tell you..i hardly dated my whole life..after opening the spaces..guys were interested in me everywhere. all of a sudden at in my 40s. (it was like night and day)..i had no clue
how it could make such a difference..i was simply asking for help making room for my tongue.

i lived in north carolina at the time..and have flown back and forth for over 3 years now to see dr hang..i am still in braces.

it is true not all cases are the same..however..it is also true that in almost every case..
there is a much better way to treat this situation and that extracting teeth and closing spaces..and making the palate even smaller makes no sense!

i am glad all of you are doing fine..i hope you continue to do well and be healthy.
you have to understand that after what i have been through..i try my best to warn everyone..
literally..

i would guarantee that if any of you made an appointment with an oral surgeon worth his salt..you would find that most of them would advise you ..that you did not need extractions.
mine all told me this.

most class 2 cases are surgical..for the best outcome.
i stand by my experience..with this..as reliable to help warn people.
i also have a medical background..so i am familiar with anatomy..
i believe..totally that extractions should be tossed into the history books..and there are a growing number of
professionals..oral surgeons...and dentists alike who are aware of this..and learning from the past mistakes.

believe me if you saw my mouth and after surgery..i would have never believed anythingn different could be done..i have a nice wide smile now..the teeth are totally where they should have been all along..at least on the top..i had no clue my teeth could be that expanded and wide..compared with all narrow and caved in..

i do apolagize..i dont mean to upset anyone..
i just really care..i hate to see people go through something..when it could be so much better.
i am finally healthy at age 46...i have finally gained some weight.. i dont look so anorexic to which i was accused of constantly...even at work. to me..it has been a nightmare....


good luck to all of you..

rebecca

[beccak]

one thing i would like to say to kenny...it has been researched that because men have stronger and larger mouth structures..they fare better than women do .. re: bicuspid extraction...so maybe in your case you are doing okay..however..i know of men who have had problems also. i can definately say that from my research and experience..women do not fare as well..and have a much smaller bone structure..therefore more bone loss..and less arch space..for breathing and for the tonuge.

i wish someone had told me that the spaces could be re opened..it was years later..when i found what was wrong..and that i was a surgical situation..i had lived with problems since the teen years..

when i was getting braces prior to my first surgery..i wished so badly they could just put my teeth back to w here they should have been and started..fresh..as things were originally as a teen.
i thought about this a lot..because by then i had researched enough to know..(and had been told by 2 dentists) that i never needed the extractions. i literally wanted to talk to my drs to see if the spaces could be put back..but i was afraid to speak up. that orthodontist told me i had a very small mouth..,and that i probably had crowding..
i knew he would not listen to me..and i didnt know it was possible to re open the spaces. had i known this is possible i would have jumped at the chance. my orthodontist was very bossy..and had me convinced that my teeth needed to be pulled. i went into the surgery concerned..but believing.they must be right.
when i had problems afterwards..i almost died when i found out the spaces could have been opened up prior to the surgery..all along as i suspected. i did end up having spaces opened on the maxilla..yes..after the first surgery..after the fact. you have no idea how many times..i wished...someone would have told me it was possible. i had looked online...everywhere..never saw it mentioned. i guess that is why i am so passionate to share and let others know what i believe..is out there.
i suppose..if any of the people on the post ever should have problems..at least they can know that there is help available..and i suppose that was my point..
i am glad for the people who are doing well ... i just dont agree that it is the way to treat these cases.
my own 2 brothers are dentists..my father is a surgeon..i dont think dentists or drs are gods..so if common sense and experience along with research tells me otherwise.. i will go against the norm of what they are teaching and practicing on people.

[kennyandrew85]

Hi Becca,

Thanks for your mature post. I am not arguing you have made a good decision as you most likely have,
However, it is wrong to tell everyone they are doing things the wrong way.

I am 12 months into braces after extractions, below is a picture of my before and current teeth, as you can see, my mouth is too small to fit all my teeth in, without extractions there is no way to make my arch any bigger without breaking bones as when you become an adult the bone is fused.

Extractions in children is a different story but look at my picture and tell me my arch is narrowing.

progress2.jpg

[Boilers]

I had 4 bicuspids extracted right before braces went in 11 months ago. I had overjet/open bite. So far the results have been positive. I'd say my face is more "athletic" looking, but I have lost about 10 lbs. The plan is to widen the arch (tip the now inward tipping teeth outward) -- I've been told that will fill things out a bit. But, no complaints on extractions from me. 43 year old male, btw.

[beccak]

sorry i havent been on the site in a while..
kenny ..i was not able to open your photo.

i am glad you all are doing okay.

i know of a video..i can post..that shows..how much palate and arch space is lost..when bicupids are removed....(it is a video that shows..actually how much the palate grows when the spaces are re opened).

fortunately..extractions do seem to work better in men..

personally i would have rather had jaw surgery..when young then the extractions. i was never given this choice..and probably the extractions were done..way too early..when i was still growing..a lot. the surgery is no big deal and really helps..if done properly and with all your teeth in your mouth. it gives better results..i think.
but most of the alternatiave dentists are picking up on these things when children are young..and growing and developing the jaws and palates..so that no surgery..and no extractions are needed.

obviously..i am against extractions...
however..there are probably mild cases..that do okay with this..
however..far too often they are being done..when they shouldnt..and they are highly linked to sleep apnea.
maybe i isnt the same for adults..
however..the drs i work with..and the ones who are against traditional orthodontist..
seem to feel that it is never a good option and i tend to a agree.
they also believe that it is not true that peoples teeth are too big for the palate..
but that the palate needs to be developed.

sorry to go on about this..glad you are doing well..
probably you will be fine..since you are already mature adults...
my situation is much different...but i will always feel that extractions..are not the answer.
of course i mentioned to dr hang what happened when i posted this site..he shakes his head..he has seen too many bad results. he used to also extract teeth and had to totally reverse his way of dentistry..bc of the results. he is an educator..and also..researcher. i believe he is on the right track..and he believes..absolutely..no extractions...
nevertheless...yes i am glad you guys all seem to be doing well..and as long as you dont develope sleep apnea..and you are happy then thats great.

[Felis]

Hi beccak.

Dr Hang sounds like a medical genius! If you wouldn't mind, could you link his research; perhaps a scientific journal that explains this in much more detail? After having my own bicuspids removed, I think I would feel much more at ease to understand what you are preaching about, and whether this doctor is truly legitimate.

As for my own experience, I only had my lowers removed about 6 days ago (for some reason, a set never actually existed on the top?!). The procedure itself was easy, but after having all my wisdom teeth removed, I wasn't particularly worried. I didn't have stitches, so the most painful part was the hour or so afterwards changing the gauze until I stopped bleeding. Not being able to drink or rinse has to be one of the worst things about tooth extractions; my body automatically just dehydrates in retaliation! I'm all good now though, I'm just trying to be careful of what I eat so that I don't get anything stuck in the holes, but they're healing up nicely. On Monday, I'll finally be able to have my lowers wired. I can't wait!

[kazw]

I had 4 premolars removed and braces as a child, and am now looking to get this reversed. I am glad everyone is doing well, but the reason I want to reverse everything, is that when the extraction spaces are closed with braces, almost all of this is done by moving the front teeth back (as the back teeth (molars) are multi rooted and so are very difficult to move. The front teeth play a vital role in supporting the area above the top lip, and so when they are moved back, all top lip support is lost, and the mouth appears sunken in. I do not have sleep apnoea, but may have some TMJ issues, apparantly this is quite common, as when the teeth are extracted and everything moved back - the mandible is forced back into an unatural position. There seems to be a growing number of us seeking to get this reversed. I understand all cases are different, and I am by no means ugly or deformed, but just not as good as I could be. There is a 35 year old woman on you tube ccarrieb who is getting it all reversed non surgically. Also, if you google 'tooth975' he is an orthodontist with much experience in this.

[sweetcynic]

As a very young child, I had an expander that was supposed to provide space. It constantly came unglued and fell out all the time(every 2 months or so), and it didn't achieve the desired result. Now, at 27, I'm probably going to get 2 upper premolar extractions to help with my overjet. Right now, my top front teeth stick out so far that I have to strain my lips to keep my mouth closed when I'm in public. When I'm in private, I don't bother; as a result my lips are chronically chapped. In my case, some lip retraction would definitely be desirable. As I'm not getting any lower extractions, tongue room isn't an issue. As an adult, they know exactly how large my jaw is.

I currently have very mild TMJ issues(occasional popping, managed pretty well with jaw exercises) and can't sleep on my back despite never having had extractions(with the exception of my wisdom teeth, and even before those I couldn't sleep on my back). Basically, my point is that different people have different experiences and it's impossible to know how things "would have" been in a different scenario.

[kazw]

I totally agree with you. I personally feel that if you start off with full lips or 2 front teeth that stick out, then retraction of the front teeth will probably not cause any adverse effects to the facial profile, and infact may help, however, as in my case and many others, I did not have protruding front teeth, and had fairly thin / average lips to begin with, therefore retracting the front teeth is not going to result in an aesthetically pleasing outcome. The nose and chin become more prominent as the mouth area is set further back than it should be. Again, it is not overly extreme, but I know I looked better before. I personally feel that a nice facial profile versus straight teeth is more desirable. Remember, most orthodontists are not concerned with how the face will look post treatment, but only how the teeth will look. A good orthodontist will consider all these factors.

[sweetcynic]

Yep, inappropriate extractions are definitely bad. Good luck in your treatment!

[kazw]

thanks, you too.

[lynn]

beccak, how can i contact you off of this site, privately? i am going through what you went through and i want to see dr. hang. i totally agree with everything you said. thanks so much.

[lynn]

Kazw, I totally agree with you as well, and I am looking to reverse my extractions.

[kazw]

Good luck with it Lynn, I'm from England, and have found a functional orthodontist who is going to help me. You need to find a functional orthodontist. They are totally against extraction and retractive orthodontics for all of the above reasons. I hope you get it sorted.

[JumpTheDitch]

For the record, I'm also in the position of now needing to reopen the extraction spaces, though I wonder if I was more susceptible to TMJ issues as only upper teeth were extracted? With all my wisdom teeth present and accounted for, I now have two teeth less in the top arch compared to on the lower. Since my recent records all clearly show both TMJs compressed with both discs 'slipped', along with a narrowed airway (I now also have sleep apnea) and a significant sound recording of the bone-on-bone grating & 'clicking' of the TMJs, I can only wonder if the problem is exacerbated when only upper teeth are extracted & retracted? If the standard 'four-on-the-floor' extraction is used, are the jaws still going to retain a more or less functional relationship, as teeth in both arches will be retracted, rather than just the one? I have no idea but it seemed off-balance at the time to have two less upper teeth to lowers so I wonder.

Both the NM dentists and the cranio-facial chiro I've seen have all (independently) suggested that in my case my TMJ's may have done better if my lower jaw had been brought forward to reduce the apparent overjet, rather than extracting and retracting the upper. So perhaps if the lower jaw is already further back into the TMJ than is optimal, the additional pressure of extracting and retracting the upper arch WITHOUT maintaining a functional jaw-to-jaw relationship can be the straw that breaks the camel's back? Or TMJs, as the case may be.

Perhaps the key is correctly diagnosing an overjet in consideration of the TMJs ; where the upper arch may need to be brought back (with palate expansion or extractions), as opposed to an underdeveloped lower jaw which may give the appearance of an overjet, but actually would be better brought forward to meet the uppers more 'normally'. Hmm.

I think that every individual is different, there are many different tools and processes orthos use the achieve the results they see as required, but I do think there should be much more of an emphasis on FUNCTIONAL orthodontics, rather than the four-on-the-floor and power-chain-em-back-fast approach. My original ortho was highly regarded in the teaching of orthodontics, I just wish he'd taken a look at my jaw-to-jaw relationship at some point. My problems with the TMJs, grinding, the torus (excess bone build up associationed with TMJ) on both palates, etc all started either during or shortly after the ortho work. The loss of quality of life over the past few years from the headaches, then migraines, interference with spatial reasoning and balance, poor sleep quality from sleep apnea, etc, etc has been less than fun. I'm so relieved I've found a dentist who can hopefully help.

Whatever your treatment plan, I strongly urge everyone (especially where extractions form part of your treatment) to speak to your ortho about how your treatment will affect your jaw-to-jaw functional relationship. A good ortho is hardly going to refuse to protect the integrity of your jaw function, their job is not just about teeth.

Good luck, hope everyone gets the outcome they're hoping for