9400 for braces...really?

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#1 Post by **fosterp** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:12 pm

Hello, I am new to this board and in the market for some type of braces system. I am a 24 year old male with some pretty crooked teeth. I took a few pictures, not the greatest quality with a cell phone but you can get an idea of the shape they are in. Missing a first molar on bottom right side, second molar on top left side. They have been missing, along with all my wisdom teeth, for about two years, and over that time has kind of messed up my bite even more.

I got one estimate from a guy who is considered one of the most expensive in the region...a rather younger guy thats part of a family of dentists (a dad and two sons), who did a really good job of selling himself. Basically assured me that my teeth would come out looking great and no need for any extractions, and they could widen the gap in the spot that a tooth was missing (the gap had closed a bit over the years) and then put a spacer for an implant in the future. They did nothing to try and hide the fact they are the most expensive but then tried to down play the expense saying its worth it for top notch care. The consultation came with all sorts of photos of my mouth and x rays and exam from the doctor, all free of charge which impressed me. His main selling point was the damon system and gave me a short demo video of the system. All in all I was impressed by how well they sold it to me but I can't help but be skeptical.

They gave me an estimate of 9400. However you get a 600 discount if its paid all up front. This seemed outrageous but then again I think that if his business is doing that well even with those kind of prices he must have a good enough reputation to charge that much. As far as my case was concerned, the consultation specialist said my price was about mid range for adults of my age at that office...with the lowest end being around 7k and the highest at 12k.

I guess its worth it to add that this price pretty much covers anything and everything during the course of treatment...there is no charges for anything like broken appliances or emergency appointments or follow up care. The doctor told me 24 to 30 months of treatment...and the specialist was more conservative with a 34 month estimate as far as cost was concerned.

Does anyone have any comments as to the cost or this system relative to my condition?

#2 Post by **Snowglobe32** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:01 pm

Hello,

I would get at least 2 more opinions for other orthodontists. To me, that seems a bit high considering that you don't need jaw surgery or extractions. Don't go with the guy who everyone knows is "expensive and top notch", I would go with the ortho you feel most comfortable with, when you visit the office, see how the staff treats you, see what the office hours are, get an overall feel for everything because this is the office you will be dealing with for 2+ years. Everything this guy sold you on, can be accomplished by another ortho.

Do you know anyone who has braces or who can give you a good recommendation? If not, start looking around for strangers who have braces, chat with them, see what they recommend.

My portion with insurance paying their part is almost $6000. Almost $10k seems really high but I am not an expert so maybe your case is a little difficult. Maybe traditional braces will work just fine for you.

I would also advise against paying it all up front, seriously, $600 is not a great discount if you pay it all up front. I paid $500 down and will make monthly payments. I know there is a thread on here somewhere about paying it all up front or monthly. I would hate to fork over almost $10k and then all of a sudden something happens and you are out all of that money. The way I look at it, I am paying for the service, if I am not happy with my service, I will take my business elsewhere. Not all ortho's will give you back the $ for the "portion of care that has not been provided yet."

My ortho did not charge me for my molds or x-rays, simply because I had previously paid for those through another ortho who I decided not to do business with. (His estimate was almost $12k, which included separating my top arch and other stuff.) Sorry, not interested.

After taking in the treatment plan from ortho #1, ortho #2 said that stuff was not necessary for my case. Most orthos can do the molds on site, which I would assume doesn't cost too much, so to me, free molds isn't anything to get excited about. Plus, with an estimate like yours, I would hope they are free.

My ortho said with the economy the way it is, he wouldn't want to charge me for molds/x-rays again. It would have cost just under $200, so that savings was helpful. Plus, I like to think that my cost for braces is mainly for the experience and expertise of the ortho. Seriously, how much can wax, arch wires, and brackets cost?

Please keep up posted.

#3 Post by **TumbleDryLow** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:11 am

You don't mention where you live. Prices can be much higher in urban areas vs rural, and even vary greatly in different parts of the county. Sill, 9400 is a bit steep. I don't have my paperwork in front of me but I think all total--4 extractions, molds, photos, appliances, retainers, and all appointments "free" even if I break something--my treatment is a little over 6800. This from a family of orthodontists (father-daugher) who not only treat all manner of difficult cases but also teach at the local prestigious university. They have a very high tech office and I'm confident that I am getting top notch treatment. I went to 4 consultations and they were all around the same price so at least I knew that was the going rate for my area. I second the suggestion that you get at least two more opinions/prices.

I don't believe that the Damon System is anything special. (They have a great marketing department though as you experienced first hand with their promotional video.) Any bracket system will give you great results so don't get hung up on what type of bracket the ortho uses. There are many other things that are way more important and the previous poster outlined many of them.

And I would not pay up front either. There are very few times in life you will get an interest-free loan. Take them up on it and keep your cash in the bank.

#4 Post by **fosterp** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:48 pm

Thanks for the reply guys. I live in the south seattle area, more towards Tacoma, but I would consider the area rural. I looked up the average costs on http://www.bracesinfo.com/dentalcosts/ and my estimate has the top 95th percentile beat by 800. Perhaps it may be due to the uniqueness of my case, but the doctor insisted my teeth are not really the worst. I just have some missing molars to work with.

A few people I work with went to this doctor themselves or for their children for braces and they all had good things to say about him, but none of them could believe the cost.

#5 Post by **yj207** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:18 pm

Maybe because you're an adult he's inflating the price? It seems really extreme to me, I would go to other doctors and compare prices. I'm paying around $5,000 and it does include everything, retainers, molds, xrays, etc. I looked at the website you posted and it says in my location the average is $7125.00 but as you can see I'm not paying nearly that much and I have a highly recommended orthodontist from former parents, patients, and dental professionals.

#6 Post by **DrJasonKTam** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:53 pm

The average fee in our metro area is probably around $6000. You'll find orthodontists treating as low as $4000 and as high as $13000. Just like any category of service, you'll find a wide range of fees.

There are various reasons for costs in each office, and to be honest, it's very difficult for the average person to determine the "skill" of any given doctor. It is often difficult to sort through all of the marketing from orthodontic companies. Rent, appliances, staff, marketing, continuing education, services offered, experience, and volume of patients all play a role in an orthodontic fee.

A doctor that teaches at a school isn't always a great indicator, since universities are scrambling to find orthodontists to teach. The reason for this is because schools cannot remunerate doctors much for their time, and much of it is on a near voluntary basis for part-time staff. A common joke amongst us is that after parking and a coffee, we're actually paying to teach at the school!

Fees very far out of the norm within one office can usually mean one of two things. Either the treatment is extremely complicated and labour intensive, or the patient is extremely time consuming, whereby deterring the patient from treatment in the office, without distinctly stating so. Let me make it clear that I'm not saying either is necessarily the case in this particular situation :).

The debate on the type of brace has been visited many times on this board. I've made a summary in this blog entry... http://markhamortho.blogspot.com/2009/1 ... -hill.html

Particularly in this economy, consumers are extremely price conscious. However, I wouldn't let this drive your final decision. Recommendations from family/friends as well as other dental professionals are probably the best starting point. Ultimately, you'll have to figure out where you feel most comfortable. If you have doubts, visit a few offices. Good luck!

#7 Post by **talisman** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:31 pm

In London UK i would say the prices are even higher.

I'm paying between 8-9 K for my braces. They are lingual, which are more expensive than front of teeth braces, but still quite expensive. In US terms that's around $13,000 +. This doesn't include my retainer fees.

I think price is very much location dependent

#8 Post by **starzz** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:37 pm

I am in the North Seattle area. I started treatment over 2 years ago. Your quote is around 50% higher than mine, although my treatment was only supposed to be 16 months. Everything is included in my treatment, including retainers through the first year post-braces.

You should look into getting treated at the University of Washington Dental School, orthodontics division. Cost there is much less than private practice. Maybe $3500 - $4000? I would have done that, but they only do first time patients and this is my second treatment.

#9 Post by **classII** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:18 pm

Sounds outrageous.

Straight up ask them what exactly the 400 dollars of the 9 thousand is for. Ask them how they derived that figure exactly. 9400 dollars.

#10 Post by **drrick** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:56 am

You can get a wide range of fees within a particular area. This depends on many, many factors. Location, office overhead and employee expense, experience, level of customer service, quality of materials and labs used, and many, many other tanglible and intangible items. Case difficulty and pt communication issues can also be a factor as mentioned above.

Getting away from braces fees within a few miles of my office denture fees range from about $500 to over $10,000 and crowns range from $450 to $2000+ There are alot of factors that go into treatment fees.

Also it is often hard to 'itemize' a service fee.

There is a fable that talks about a repair man coming into a factory to fix a very large important machine that is running the entire factory. The repairman is shown the machine by the floor manager and looks around the machine for a couple of minutes. The repair man then takes out a hammer and taps the machine one time and the machine starts to work bringing the factory back online. The repair man sends his bill in the amount of $500. The floor manager is appaled by the fee and asks for an itemized bill.

The repair man sends the itemized bill:
Tapping machine with hammer: $1
Knowing where to tap the machine: $499

#11 Post by **fosterp** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:07 pm

I have some additional photos that were actually taken at the office if anyone who really knows the system can give any better estimate to what the real range of cost should be.

http://img527.imageshack.us/g/teethi.jpg/

Also, does the fact that nearly all my teeth have fillings in them, some quite large, have any bearing on the difficulty of the case?

#12 Post by **starzz** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:05 pm

Why don't you get a couple more consults elsewhere and see if there is consensus as to the general treatment approach? Then pick someone you trust to do the work.

The fact that you are missing teeth may make the case a little more challenging, I believe.

Good Luck!

#13 Post by **yj207** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:35 pm

Yeah I agree with everyone else that say you should get several other consults. Whether or not anyone would know the cost range for your type of treatment, price really depends by many many things (location, skill lvl of doctor, etc). To get a better understanding of what your price should be would be to see another ortho and get their quotes and compare.

Good luck, let us know what happens!

#14 Post by **fosterp** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:32 pm

DrJasonKTam wrote: or the patient is extremely time consuming, whereby deterring the patient from treatment in the office, without distinctly stating so.

Does that really happen?

I could see some areas of the service industry doing such things but when it comes to medical care I figure doctors should have the highest ethical standards?

#15 Post by bb » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:56 pm

Doctors are human too!